2 minute rule for malfunctions - 5.7.4

[JAFO]

One way to help avoid this is to make sure you explain in the new shooters' briefing that they can ask for assistance during their runs. ROs on each squad can also ask the squad if anyone is a new shooter before starting the first stage.

I know most of the experienced shooters that come to our club. If one of them stopped trying to fix the gun and gave me the puppy dog eyes, I'd ask "If you are finished..." Even though that's listed as a range command, it's a question. I'm not stopping the shooter. And if they are just standing there looking at me before I say it, good luck arbitrating interference.

If a new shooter is struggling with a malfunction, I will ask if they need help. If they say yes, then I help them correct the problem so they can do it themselves next time. If they want to claim interference, so be it, but so far none have. Most just want to learn, have fun, and enjoy the sport.

[Southpaw]

Ah thanks Chuck. That must have been what I was thinking of. I'm not up to date on all the gaming tactics for getting a reshoot on a blown run...which yes of course no one would ever do

Good to know the "if you are finished..." command is an appropriate response to puppy dog eyes without waiting the whole 2 minutes.

[jester121]

8.6.4, "the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot" , there is no automatic reshoot for contact or interference.

Now, with that said, I would just let the shooter attempt to remediate the issue for the full 2 mins or until he/she was obviously done before that. It sucks but that's the rules.

Lee Neel

RM

Lee, this is the key to the entire thread really, or at least to debunking the whole "you said something other than a range command and interfered with me after I'd been tinkering around with my gun for 45 seconds so I deserve a reshoot" nonsense. That seems to be one of those canards that permeates USPSA mythology -- I'm not saying it's never happened, but who knows how long ago or how often?

No, I'm not offering a reshoot for that, it's not interference. Feel free to appeal that decision to the CRO, RM, and arb committee -- and I bet you get the same result.

As a great shooter said recently -- how about we get together and use our %@#$$# brains for these situations?

[teros135]

Well, "If you are finished..." isn't actually a question. There's no question mark at the end of it. You don't state it with the upturn in vocal tone that signifies a question.

It's a statement that says that if the shooter decides they are finished, they go on to the next step, which is ULSC. If not, they just keep on.

It's not interference. It's a legitimate stage command. And it isn't going to be issued while someone is banging away at targets (which might seem like interference) but rather when they've stopped action.

Edited January 28, 2016 by teros135

[teros135]

Oh, no re-shoot. I like cheese.... Don't you also like cheese?

I'd give this little fella whatever he wants.

[frgood]

As a caveat, and especially with us noobies, I would still think to keep an eye on that trigger finger.

But the consensus here makes perfect sense. Particularly at a local match where that newbie is usually a friend brought by one of your buddies. Perhaps I'll think different after I had the privilege of ROing some major matches. Also, until I learn how to start the 2 minute counter in the timer. I guess i stuck with being a nice guy.

[sperman]

I was CRO at a L2 match a few years ago. I was also the RO on the timer. A shooter had a jamb of some sort. After struggling with getting the round out of the chamber, he said to me "the round is stuck. I'm going to have to fire the gun to clear it." My reply was "as long as the gun is safe, you can finish the stage." Was I out of line? Would that fall into the category of coaching?

[Gary Stevens]

I would say you might have done it differently. Sometimes non-verbal communication can be as good as verbal and not against the rulebook.

My response to the shooter would have been, while looking them in the eye, a shoulder shrug and a look of non-concern. The shooters know the safety rules, or at least they should, if they do something unsafe I'll deal with that on the spot.

I'm sure someone will point out where I was wrong also:)

[Gary Stevens]

As a caveat, and especially with us noobies, I would still think to keep an eye on that trigger finger.

But the consensus here makes perfect sense. Particularly at a local match where that newbie is usually a friend brought by one of your buddies. Perhaps I'll think different after I had the privilege of ROing some major matches. Also, until I learn how to start the 2 minute counter in the timer. I guess i stuck with being a nice guy.

Or you could use a wristwatch and still be a nice guy.

[9x45]

Oh, no re-shoot. I like cheese.... Don't you also like cheese?

I'd give this little fella whatever he wants.

Damn straight teros, Level One? Do the right thing. A very long time ago, after I returned to USPSA in 96, after a 4 year medical leave from a serious motorcycle crash, I had a gun issue (not safety related). The RO was our very own El Prez, Micheal Voigt, and he cut me some slack. Since then I have returned the favor 1,000 times over. Yes, it's not the rules, but it's the kind and right thing to do, and I always tell them this won't roll for a Level 2 match. I have yet to find a big rock on the prize table....

[motosapiens]

My response to the shooter would have been, while looking them in the eye, a shoulder shrug and a look of non-concern. The shooters know the safety rules, or at least they should, if they do something unsafe I'll deal with that on the spot.

a reasonable response, except that at a local match, where you *know* the shooter is a new guy, it won't hurt anyone to not treat him like an experienced competitor. First impressions are sometimes the only one you get, if you come across as arrogant and unhelpful (not saying you have ever been arrogant or unhelpful, just saying that I feel it's worth it to offer some guidance to first-timers).

Edited January 29, 2016 by motosapiens

[ChuckS]

Oh, no re-shoot. I like cheese.... Don't you also like cheese?

I'd give this little fella whatever he wants.

Damn straight teros, Level One? Do the right thing. A very long time ago, after I returned to USPSA in 96, after a 4 year medical leave from a serious motorcycle crash, I had a gun issue (not safety related). The RO was our very own El Prez, Micheal Voigt, and he cut me some slack. Since then I have returned the favor 1,000 times over. Yes, it's not the rules, but it's the kind and right thing to do, and I always tell them this won't roll for a Level 2 match. I have yet to find a big rock on the prize table....

If it is no big deal at a Level 1 match, why all the angst about zeroing a stage? After all, there is no prize table, right?

[Gary Stevens]

My response to the shooter would have been, while looking them in the eye, a shoulder shrug and a look of non-concern. The shooters know the safety rules, or at least they should, if they do something unsafe I'll deal with that on the spot.

a reasonable response, except that at a local match, where you *know* the shooter is a new guy, it won't hurt anyone to not treat him like an experienced competitor. First impressions are sometimes the only one you get, if you come across as arrogant and unhelpful (not saying you have ever been arrogant or unhelpful, just saying that I feel it's worth it to offer some guidance to first-timers).

The question was about shooting a stuck round out of the gun. That was the scenario I responded to.

[Southpaw]

As a caveat, and especially with us noobies, I would still think to keep an eye on that trigger finger.

But the consensus here makes perfect sense. Particularly at a local match where that newbie is usually a friend brought by one of your buddies. Perhaps I'll think different after I had the privilege of ROing some major matches. Also, until I learn how to start the 2 minute counter in the timer. I guess i stuck with being a nice guy.

Or you could use a wristwatch and still be a nice guy.

Has anyone actually had one go the full 2 minutes while ROing? That feels like an eternity while trying to clear a malfunction. I'd think most people would either clear it or give up and know that it's not something that can be fixed on the clock before the 2 minutes are up.

Problem with the wristwatch is when the malfunction first happens you're not going to think to look at the watch. I know when ROing and someone has a malfunction I'm keeping my eyes on the gun making sure their finger's off the trigger and they don't break the 180. If it feels like it's been 2 minutes is there anything wrong with looking at the current time on the shot timer, then tapping it and seeing if 2 minutes has passed? You can always go back on the timer and get the time from the previous shot for the score.

[IronArcher]

One could always stop the poor guy early and say you suspected an unsafe gun. A jammed gun in the hands of someone who has no idea to clear it and is under the proverbial gun to get it fixed quickly is an unsafe gun.

Wordsmithing? sure.

If he needs help clearing it, that's the evidence that supported your decision.

Just spitballing here.

[Southpaw]

My response to the shooter would have been, while looking them in the eye, a shoulder shrug and a look of non-concern. The shooters know the safety rules, or at least they should, if they do something unsafe I'll deal with that on the spot.

a reasonable response, except that at a local match, where you *know* the shooter is a new guy, it won't hurt anyone to not treat him like an experienced competitor. First impressions are sometimes the only one you get, if you come across as arrogant and unhelpful (not saying you have ever been arrogant or unhelpful, just saying that I feel it's worth it to offer some guidance to first-timers).

Gary was responding to a question regarding a level 2 match. I think Gary's response was perfect (well I might have also thrown in a little "have at it" hand wave ). You can communicate a lot with non-verbals and that way you're sticking to just using range commands. I think, especially at a major match, once you say anything but a range command you're opening the doors for the shooter getting a reshoot.

At a level 1 match I'd still do the same thing - obvious non-verbal response communicating "go for it". But if it's a newer shooter who still looks unsure they'll probably then say something like "so it's ok to fire the stuck round?" and now that the shooter asked a question he's requesting coaching, which is allowed at a level 1 match, so the RO can now say sure fire the stuck round, or whatever.

[Gary Stevens]

I've often said that common sense is often an uncommon virtue.

Look, I formally was an RMI and am currently a proud RM. I believe in the rule book because it keeps everyone on the same sheet of music. Now having said that, we each have to live with ourselves when we RO, but you need to be prepared to be responsible for what you do.

As to the 2 minute rule, when I have a fixed RO crew we discuss how to handle thus. The RO with the timer will start the time by holding up two fingers to the assistant RO. That RO will watch the clock and announce when the 2 minutes is up. This allows the timer RO to watch the shooter. If I am a single RO I can still take a glance at my watch without losing control of the shooter.

[waktasz]

I have coached new shooters through the procedure to clear a double feed if they clearly have no idea what is going on.

I've also taken a gun from someone to clear it for them, usually caused by a fat round, and the shooter (even relatively experienced ones) don't now how to clear it.

In hind sight I probably did not handle that according to the letter of the law. Usually they stop and look at me, and I say "you're done? ok, hand it over" and clear it for them. IFYAFULASC would be the correct thing to say but they are already looking at me like "Dude, how do I fix this" and asking them to show me clear doesn't get us anywhere.

What would be the correct course of action there?

Edited January 29, 2016 by waktasz

[Gary Stevens]

IMO, you do the "if you are ...." question and in essence force the shooter to indicate in some manner that they are finished. This may be something like " I can't unload" or "I'm finished but don't know what to do" or some variation of "I'm done."

At that point record the time and take whatever actions are required to rectify the situation.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Gary Stevens

[JAFO]

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition.

Sounds like you did what you needed to in order to clear the gun and the range.

Edited January 29, 2016 by JAFO

[frgood]

As a caveat, and especially with us noobies, I would still think to keep an eye on that trigger finger.

But the consensus here makes perfect sense. Particularly at a local match where that newbie is usually a friend brought by one of your buddies. Perhaps I'll think different after I had the privilege of ROing some major matches. Also, until I learn how to start the 2 minute counter in the timer. I guess i stuck with being a nice guy.

Or you could use a wristwatch and still be a nice guy.

Heh heh I really should wear mine more often. I'm still trying to remember to keep a pen in my pocket. Lol

Sent from my SGH-T399N using Tapatalk

[Poppa Bear]

I have told the shooter to take a deep breath and relax. Now drop the magazine and clear the jam. Now insert a fresh mag and continue the COF.

It is one thing if it is an experienced shooter. It is another when it one of the shooters first matches and the adrenaline rush is short circuiting their brain.

We as RO's need to judge the shooters level of experience and if needed give them the necessary advice to get their brains back on line.

[teros135]

Just a thought here. You'd like to give the newcomer a break, we get that. The brain does go south sometimes, and we'd all like a hand when that happens. But how do you learn to *think* when you don't get to find out what happens when you don't?

We'd all appreciate some help, from time to time. In the past year I could certainly have used some help when I forgot to rack a round into the chamber at MR, or forgot to step into the shooting area at the beep, or ran past a target. Why wouldn't that be okay? It would have meant the world to me, and I wouldn't have gone home frustrated and unhappy.

[Poppa Bear]

A part of it for me is just being observant of the shooters actions. Like the above example where I have talked people through clearing a jam because of their brain going south. I have told shooters "You need to drop the magazine before you rack the slide" "Let's do that again" at IYAFUASC. I have stopped shooters from turning past the 180 as I am getting ready to issue the IYAF command. All of the above were usually during their first match, and usually their first stage.

Could I be a dick and let them DQ, or let the 2 minutes go by and then end the COF? Yes I could but that is not my nature. My nature is to keep things safe and assist the shooter where I can see the frustration levels starting to climb, or the adrenaline rush has short circuited their awareness of muzzle control.

I have watched many a shooter to include myself fight with a death jam and it is easy to see who is struggling with it while using proper technique and maintaining safety, and NOOB who has forgotten a crucial step like removing the magazine prior to trying to clear a double feed.

Safety is first, the rules come second. This is strictly a level one situation, but prior to starting a lateral stage I have told shooters on many occasions to think about their stage plan. If they reload between these two points they have the potential to break the 180. The new shooters get a puzzled look on their face and the experienced shooters demonstrate how the muzzle tends to point to the weak side during a reload which can and will lead to a DQ if it breaks the 180.

[Sarge]

"Letting" somebody DQ is not necessarily being a dick.

Letting somebody work on their own malfunction until they give up isn't either.

I have grown to hate the term range nazi because in most cases people get labeled that for simply applying the rules fairly across the board.