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2 minute rule for malfunctions - 5.7.4


Southpaw

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I didn't want to hijack this thread http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=227851 with this question as that other thread relates to squibs and my question is about other malfunctions under 5.7.4.

So this happened to me twice recently - I'm ROing a shooter who has a bad malfunction. He's trying to fix it and clearly has no idea how (appears to be a new shooter). As RO, I'm standing there making sure he's not breaking a safety rule while trying to clear the malfunction. After about 30 seconds it's pretty clear the shooter isn't making any progress fixing the malfunction and I've even had them look back at me with that helpless look, but not actually verbally ask for help. Is there anything you can do as RO besides stand there in silence staring at each other for another 90 seconds (which will feel like an eternity)?

If I say anything to the shooter like "do you need help" or "do you give up" the shooter could say that's an interference under 8.6.4 and request a reshoot. So it seems that unless the shooter verbally asks for help all I can do is stand there even when it's clear the shooter really wants help and just about gives up trying to clear the malfunction himself.

Even at a level 1 match where some coaching is allowed, 8.6.2.1 says the shooter can "receive whatever coaching or assistance they request", so the shooter must first request the coaching. If I offer to coach on how to clear the malfunction the shooter could claim he didn't want the coaching and that goes back to 8.6.4.

This question is really about level 1 club matches where the shooter appears to be a newer shooter. At a major match I'll just stand there like a statue for the 2 minutes.

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Here's I how I roll with that, Level One, newbies. After all, I have never seen a big rock on the prize table. As an experienced RO, you know they are struggling. Do you want them to have a good experience? on never come back.

Buddy: fiddle with the gun for a few seconds, then, oops, bump the timer, re-shoot for score. My crew doesn't judge your performance, only the shooter has to live with their shame until the next match.

Not Buddy: Let them struggle for 60 or so seconds, then oops, bump the timer. Scored as stopped, but ask if they want a re-shoot, not for score, just write it on the back of the paper. They could have been a contender! Then your "not buddy" status is changed to "buddy" next time....

DikkHed: go the full 2 minutes.

Edited by 9x45
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The rule allows 2 minutes for the competitor to clear a malfunction. Stand and watch the show and the only thing that you say is "if you are finished unload and show clear". I used to think more like Mr 9x45 until a GM tried to pull the struggling shooter with the puppy dog eyes on me at a Level 1 match. Now, everybody gets the same treatment. Following the rules is the right thing to do at a USPSA match. Not following the rules is "DikkHed"

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The rule allows 2 minutes for the competitor to clear a malfunction. Stand and watch the show and the only thing that you say is "if you are finished unload and show clear". I used to think more like Mr 9x45 until a GM tried to pull the struggling shooter with the puppy dog eyes on me at a Level 1 match. Now, everybody gets the same treatment. Following the rules is the right thing to do at a USPSA match. Not following the rules is "DikkHed"

This. However if I get the "please help me" look, I'll cut the 2 minutes short and go to. "If you are finished..."

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Yeah this is kinda what I figured, there's really no mechanism in the rules to ask if they need help before the 2 minutes are up without risking you causing a reshoot.

I definitely don't support ROing differently for your buddies. Actually if it were a buddy I would absolutely not try to help and give them a reshoot because they know better! It's really just the newbies that this has happened with. I feel like a jerk just standing there staring at them struggle. I guess at level 1 matches where it's clear it's a newbie I'll cut the suffering short as Gary said.

And that puppy definitely gets a DQ :devil:

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8.6.4, "the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot" , there is no automatic reshoot for contact or interference.

Now, with that said, I would just let the shooter attempt to remediate the issue for the full 2 mins or until he/she was obviously done before that. It sucks but that's the rules.

Lee Neel

RM

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Personally I hate the "its just a club match" thing. Its a game, play it by the rules.

I have had pretty good luck with "if your finished unload and show clear" for new shooters. At that point they tend to start asking questions and life gets simpler without me having to cheat to help the shooter.

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If you are in the habit of acting one way in a level 1 match and act differently in higher level matches it's not doing anyone any good.

How far do you go on breaking the rules?

Is it no big deal a guy broke 180 by just a little in a club match?

Do you give your buddy a break but not someone else?

If you don't follow the rules it is cheating.

I made a call on a guy about a dropped gun, I waited for the R.O. on the timer to make the call but he didn't so I had to, it got a little heated but he trapped the gun after it came out of his holster, he is a good guy and that was his best match he ever had until that happened.

I have had R.O.'s say at major matches they won't call a shooter on a trigger in or on a trigger when it shouldn't be. It's something that should be dealt with at the club level, at the club level they will get a pass saying don't do it at a big match.

IMO basing calls on who the shooter is or what type of match it is, is cheating.

We have a rule book, fairly enforce the rules for everyone, no matter who they are, you don't have to be a rule nazi, but part of being am R.O. is fairly enforcing the rules.

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Watch the show. I don't have any friends so I treat everybody the same

One of the guys on the squad seemed more bent out of shape about the DQ than the guy that got DQ'd, saw him last night at the club election and he said I shouldn't have stuck my nose in it since I wasn't running him, I told him as the second R.O. on the pad it was my responsibility to make tge call, I was surprised the R.O. on the timer didn't stop him, guy trapping the gun could have shot himself.

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Watch the show. I don't have any friends so I treat everybody the same

One of the guys on the squad seemed more bent out of shape about the DQ than the guy that got DQ'd, saw him last night at the club election and he said I shouldn't have stuck my nose in it since I wasn't running him, I told him as the second R.O. on the pad it was my responsibility to make tge call, I was surprised the R.O. on the timer didn't stop him, guy trapping the gun could have shot himself.
Yeah he is wrong. If you are scoring you're an RO on the stage. Good call.
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If you are in the habit of acting one way in a level 1 match and act differently in higher level matches it's not doing anyone any good.

How far do you go on breaking the rules?

Is it no big deal a guy broke 180 by just a little in a club match?

Do you give your buddy a break but not someone else?

If you don't follow the rules it is cheating.

I made a call on a guy about a dropped gun, I waited for the R.O. on the timer to make the call but he didn't so I had to, it got a little heated but he trapped the gun after it came out of his holster, he is a good guy and that was his best match he ever had until that happened.

I have had R.O.'s say at major matches they won't call a shooter on a trigger in or on a trigger when it shouldn't be. It's something that should be dealt with at the club level, at the club level they will get a pass saying don't do it at a big match.

IMO basing calls on who the shooter is or what type of match it is, is cheating.

We have a rule book, fairly enforce the rules for everyone, no matter who they are, you don't have to be a rule nazi, but part of being am R.O. is fairly enforcing the rules.

Really good post

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agree 100% ... it's always amazing to me the number of 'experienced' shooters that don't know even the basic overarching rules ... usually a quick quote of the actual rule shuts them up because they finally realize that don't the rules and are starting to look stupid in public ... however, if they keep flapping their gums they're in for further embarrassment since like Sarge, I have no friends & don't really care what others think ... :)

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If the shooter has stopped shooting, given up manipulating their equipment, turns and looks at me (big eyes or not) they get an "if you are finished..." just as if they were at the end of the stage. For all I know, they could have decided it is faster to end now and eat the penalties.

I don't know that the rules mandate that I stand there like a mute for two minutes - just that the competitor can fiddle with their gun for two minutes before I will mandate that they stop. Giving the "if finished..." command is not RO interference (although the shooter is free to pay his $100 and make that argument).

Edited by StealthyBlagga
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You guys are real hardazzes. I don't have any trouble separating the concept of not being a dick to a new shooter at a local match vs following the rules. The new guy is not going to win the motorhome or bass boat we give away each month anyway, so I don't have any problem stepping in and lending a hand. Maybe that's why we apparently get more new shooters that get hooked on the sport than some other folks do (from another thread). I've never yet had a newbie with a gun problem say "i want a reshoot because you interfered with me." If I did get that a couple times, perhaps I would change my tune.

In those situations I do always explain the actual rules, so we can educate them, not be dicks, and still not give the monthly bass boat for first C in L10 to the wrong guy. This also has the benefit of educating the others on the squad that may be more experienced but still not know the rules that well.

Also note that I'm not talking about giving anyone a pass on a safety issue here. IMHO that's a totally different issue than coaching/assisting/educating a new shooter.

Edited by motosapiens
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Giving the "if finished..." command is not RO interference (although the shooter is free to pay his $100 and make that argument).

This is exactly what I was asking about, if there's a proper way to see if the shooter gives up trying to clear the malfunction without waiting the full 2 minutes.

Has there been a ruling that giving the "if you are finished..." command is not grounds for claiming RO interference under 8.6.4? I ask because I've heard of shooters at major matches trying to trick ROs into giving the command and then claiming they weren't done shooting and want a reshoot.

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Has there been a ruling that giving the "if you are finished..." command is not grounds for claiming RO interference under 8.6.4? I ask because I've heard of shooters at major matches trying to trick ROs into giving the command and then claiming they weren't done shooting and want a reshoot.

you would have to trick the RO into saying stop, or just 'unload and show clear'. Someone could still arbitrate if they wanted, but they would lose just about every time.

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Giving the "if finished..." command is not RO interference (although the shooter is free to pay his $100 and make that argument).

This is exactly what I was asking about, if there's a proper way to see if the shooter gives up trying to clear the malfunction without waiting the full 2 minutes.

Has there been a ruling that giving the "if you are finished..." command is not grounds for claiming RO interference under 8.6.4? I ask because I've heard of shooters at major matches trying to trick ROs into giving the command and then claiming they weren't done shooting and want a reshoot.

That really happens? :rolleyes: IYAFUASC is an approved range command according to 8.3. I don't think a properly used and sequenced approved range command could be considered interference but the shooter is more than welcome to talk to the RM about it and perhaps even put $100 on it.

(The gaming trick for a trashed run is to get the RO to say something other than IYAFUASC, or so I'm told :rolleyes: )

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