Load data Zero 125 Gr. 9MM JHP

[exaibachey]

Hello everyone!

I've been lurking for a while and have found so much good information. I need some help so here I am.

I am in need of load data for 9MM 125 Gr. JHP made by Zero Bullets using IMR 700X powder.

I am shooting a Glock 19 and 34.I shoot IDPA one to two times month and practice at the range once or twice a month.

I am a new re-loader and have recently finished my first 1,000 rounds of Berry's 115 Gr. RN using Auto Comp and things went really well. I wanted to switch it up a bit and try 125 Gr. JHP. I found the load data in the Lyman's manual and moved forward and purchased 1,000 Zero 125 Gr. JHP's.

Here is my problem:

I found load data in the Lyman's 49th edition that lists 125 Gr. JHP using 700X

Lyman lists starting load at 3.8 and max at 4.2. with a COL of 1.075

I loaded 3 of each starting at 3.7 all the way through 4.2. I went to the range and started with the 3 rounds of 4.0 and it seemed like it was way too much.

After shooting the 18 test rounds, including the 3.7 which was below the starting load of 3.8, and even they cycled perfectly and all of them seemed way to strong..Although I am new to reloading, I have been shooting 9MM for a really long time and something didn't seem right.

I went home and have been scowering the internet looking for data.I have called Hogdgon twice and left messages.I have found on the Hodgdon site some good info, but I am still not certain. They say jacketed bullets can be loaded just like JHP- still confused- but Hodgdon shows load data for 700X using the Hornady 125 Gr. HAP Hornady Action Pistol which is supposed to be identical to the Hornady 125 Gr. XTP JHP.

Hodgdon load data says starting load for the 125 Gr. HAP is 2.9 to 3.4 with COL 1.069

Although I am new, that seems like a huge difference from the Lyman's manual. The data for the 125 Gr. HAP of 2.9 to 3.4 is much more likely than the info from Lyman's of 3.8 to 4.2.

I am only basing this on my very limited re-loading experience and I am hoping that someone here can help me figuring out the right load data.

Thank you in advance for any help.

[lesm]

I am no help on 700x, but I will comment on COL. Some of the manuals show the 9mm HAP loaded very short ie. 1.07. HAP's with the rather sharp shoulder will not chamber in some barrels like CZ's if loaded any or much longer than that. Most newer Glock barrels ( such as my rather new 19 and 34) will take 125 HAPs at around 1.12. You might see what COL your barrel would take to hit the lands and then back that down a little and load some test rounds. The increased COL will give you a little less pressure but I can't tell you haw much it will affect the actual velocity. The 125 HAP is a very good bullet and can be very accurate. I have throated all my CZ's and EAA Witness barrels to take HAP's at 1.12.

[lesm]

I forgot to add that your 125 Zeros if they are JHP-Conical or regular JHP can go longer than HAPs since the shoulder is more rounded. I have shot over 10,000 of the Zero -C's with very good results, very accurate.

[rooster]

Chrono your loads, recoil is very subjective, you need to know exactly what they are. Only way to do that is chrono. Generally hp's are loaded short because of the profile. In your guns you can probably go a lot longer. I've run zero's 125 gr.hp's to 1.135 in my 34 with no problems.

[Hi-Power Jack]

125 Gr. JHP using 700X with a COL of 1.075

I loaded 3.7 through 4.2. they cycled perfectly and all seemed way too strong

I'd do The Plunk Test and load them out almost as far as you can,

(probably 1.12") and run them thru a chrono.

[noylj]

125gn = 124 gn. Use same load data.

You can easily go down to 3.0gn (for about 840 fps)

3.6-3.7gn gives 930-1007fps in "some" guns. 3.9gn gives 1050 fps in "some" guns. Of course, my COL was 1.100 to 1.120".

You'll never know what you have without a chronograph.

[exaibachey]

Thank you everyone for your help and input.

Before I start to ramble, and y’all have no idea what I trying to say, here are the questions I am trying to get answered in my post below:

1) How do I see signs of too much pressure? (Remember, I am brand new to this and have a pretty thick skull)

2) Do I use the FMJ or HAP C.O.L for my JHP's? I know it's only a difference of .031 but does that matter?

3) Are you tired of my questions yet?

Here we go....

I spoke with a live person at Hodgdon today and I am beginning to get a better understanding.

He told me that I can use any load data for flat nose, jacketed or JHP for my 125 Gr. 9mm JHP.

That part I understand now. 125 Gr. is 125 Gr. As long as it is the same type of bullet.

What I don't understand is COL. He suggested I use the data on their site for the Sierra FMJ- Okay so far- Starting load at 3.0 to 3.6 max

What I don't understand and didn't ask because I didn't think of it until after I got home and pulled up the load data is the COL.

If I am using JHP isn't the bullet profile different for JHP than FMJ?

Example using the Hodgdon website data- for 9mm 125 Gr.

FMJ = 1.090

HAP = 1.069

If it is the same bullet, why the different COL?

If 9mm is such a high pressure load, doesn't it matter if I shorten the COL? I know both my Glocks will cycle 1.140 COL no problem, but why would I start long and work my way down? (Some have suggested I start at 1.120 and work my way down) BUT- how do I know where to stop?

I don't have a chronograph but I am trying to find one. I am guessing that would be the ideal way to figure all of this out.

What are the sign of too much pressure? How do I know too far before it happens? -Yes, I know not to go shorter than the 1.069 and actually that's what I loaded my original 18 test rounds to.

For such an exact science I m not feeling very, well, um, exact.

Thank you again for listening,

Brad

[Hi-Power Jack]

Thank you everyone for your help and input.

Here we go....

What I don't understand is COL.

If it is the same bullet, why the different COL?

What are the sign of too much pressure?

COL is very important - you want to take the barrel out of your gun and load different

length cartridges into the chamber - find the longest that will PLUNK, spin and drop

freely.

Shorten that a little bit and that is a good place to start with COL.

Signs of too much pressure are very flat primers.

[lesm]

I think we are all saying load long and stay long. There is no reason to work down the OAL if your barrel will take longer OAL.

Sierra bullets are very stubby and tables usually show them short because if you loaded them to 1.14 there may not be enough bullet in the case. Plus with their blunt nose they will hit the lands pretty quick.

[rooster]

The load data in manuals are a starting point. You can always go longer, but I wouldn't go shorter. Signs of pressure are flattened primers and bulged cases. But you need to chrono.

[IDescribe]

Okay, COL/OAL, here we go:

NO, your Glocks won't cycle 1.14 no problem. Your Glocks will cycle SOME bullets at 1.14 no problem. And other bullets it will NOT cycle or chamber at OAL 1.14 at all. That's the first thing you need to understand.

There are two limiting factors on OAL. The first is simply the maximum the magazine will handle, which for almost all 9mm pistols is 1.169. You'll likely never be able to load longer than 1.169, and you'd probably be best off just deciding to limit yourself to 1.160 to give yourself some slack there. The other more important limiting factor is the OAL at which a particular bullet engages the rifling, which I'll do my best to explain next.

The straight part of the bullet that contacts the rifling when fired is called the bearing surface or shank. Then you have the nose of the bullet. Then the curved or slanted area between the nose and the shank is called the ogive. Now, assume your barrel has an interior diameter of .354. And the bullets you use will always be .355 or bigger (this is neither exact nor universal, but for simplicity's sake and ease of understanding, just picture it this way). The longest you can load a bullet in a particular pistol is the length at which the furthest forward portion of the bullet that is .354 makes contacts with the rifling. The shank is .355 or larger in diameter, so the portion that is .354 is going to be just ahead of the shank on the ogive. Another way to picture it is to think that everything .354 and larger will sit outside the rifling and into the chamber, and everything .353 and smaller will sit into the rifling and barrel at max OAL. And because different bullet profiles have different "lengths" extending in front of that .353/.354 border, you can end up with radically different max OALs with different bullets in a single pistol. A long tapering round nose bullet might have .4 inches extending ahead of that .353/354 borderline compared to a JHP's .250, which is going to result in the round nose have a maximum OAL of .15 LONGER than the JHP. Basically, some bullet's profiles allow more of the nose to stick into the barrel, which results in a longer max OAL.

That's max OAL. You typically want to load a little shorter than max to account for variations in your loading equipment and process. A common reduction from the max OAL is .015. If your max OAL with a particular bullet in a particular pistol is 1.140, you might want to consider trying for an OAL of 1.125. Once you're developing loads, you can adjust that down a little more to try to tune accuracy, but it's probably not necessary. Finding the perfect accuracy OAL isn't all that necessary if you're shooting 25 yards or less.

So how do you find your max OAL with a particular bullet? You can use what's called a push test or plunk test. Google "push test" for detailed instructions, but basically you're going to break down your weapon and take out the barrel, then you're going to put a bullet into a fired case that you have not yet resized, then slowly push the bullet and case into the chamber. When the bullet hits the lands, it will slowly slide back into the case, keep pushing until the case headspaces, and then when you pull it out, the bullet will be sitting in the case at your maxmimum OAL for that specific bullet in that specific chamber. It's recommended you do this several times with several different cases and bullets and take the average. From that max OAL, deduct .015 to give yourself slack and room for variation and error. Record that number as your usable OAL. After that, you load a dummy bullet at that OAL and do the plunk test, which is holding the barrel nose down and dropping the dummy round in. If it "plunks" into place, and it spins freely in place with very little effort from your fingers, you're good to go. My method is actually to do a push test once with one case and bullet, then load a dummy a couple hundredths longer than that, plunk it to confirm it's too long, then keep seating deeper and deeper until it plunks and spins freely. That's my max OAL, then I'll knock off .010 to .015 from there.

But what about the OAL in the published data?!?!?!? That OAL is simply the OAL they used when they conducted the test. It's not a best OAL or a preferred OAL or a maximum OAL or a minimum OAL. It is simply the OAL they used when they tested. Published data is not a recipe. It is a report of a test done with a test fixture instead of a gun, and you are free to deviate from it where needed. If you have to load shorter than the reported OAL, you should expect to achieve the same velocities in the published data with less powder and at higher peak pressures, and adjust your test ladders accordingly. If you are loading longer than in the OAL in the published data, you should expect to match published velocities with more powder but at lower peak pressures.

Also, keep in mind that when we shorten OAL, pressure does go up, but it's not because the nose of the bullet is getting closer to the base of the cartridge. It's because the bullet base is going further into the case and shrinking the size of the initial combustion chamber, which increases pressure. When you see a Hornady FMJ and HAP at two different OALs but using the same data, it's because the bases of the bullets are seated the same depth into the case (or close to the same) at those respective OALs, so though their OALs are different, the size of that initial combustion chamber inside the case is the same. There are also other differences in the bullets at play here, but how far those bullet bases are seated into the case is a big one.

Another also -- that Hodgdon guy seemed to indicate to you that when looking at data, same weight is same weight, and while that's the most important thing to match, surface type is important, too. When all else is equal, a lead bullet will typically reach a particular velocity with less powder than a jacketed bullet needs. So if you're looking for data for your 124gr lead or coated bullet and find 124gr jacketed data, you need to drop the starting load.

And finally, get a chrono. That is the only thing that will tell you anything reliable. There is art and skill to reading pressure signs with rifle, a lot more than people think, but you can do it. With pistol, it's neither art nor skill -- it's voodoo, and it's slightly less reliable than reading chicken bones. It's nothing but a false sense of security. Get a chrono.

Edited January 21, 2016 by IDescribe

[exaibachey]

IDescribe-

First, let me say thank you so very much for your patience and detailed reply.

I just happened to find the "push test" just before your message and that combined with your detailed explanation has begun to clear so many things up for me. I have done the push test with both my 34 and 19. I placed 6 bullets into cases that have been fired, cleaned and tumbled but still have the used primer in them and tried it out. Although different for the two guns all 6 were very consistent in length for each gun. The 34 averaged 1.178 and the 19 averaged 1.128

I am now starting to understand COL/OAL- I still have a ways to go but it is making sense. I now know why everyone says start long- the difference between 1.115 (1.128 - .015 give or take) and 1.090 is very small. You drove the point home that I NEED a chronograph. It is the one piece of the puzzle that will really put this to bed for me.

I have to say that I truly appreciate your help. It is making me more confident as I move forward.

Thank you.

Edited January 22, 2016 by exaibachey

[exaibachey]

[Pills57]

I shoot the Zero's at 3.3 and OAL of 1.069 to 1.070 in my Shadow 2, if I load them to 1.100 and try to unload a loaded round it's stuck as it has been shoved already into the lan's and groves. 1.070 to 1.069 works flawless ! ! ! Hope this helps though I do know this is an older post.