Stlhead Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 I know that this is going to get a lot of ire, but I think it is well past time to consider limiting the capacity of our shotgun tubes to the division capacity limits. The other option I see is to remove the division capacity limits for shotguns entirely. Right now scope tac and limited are supposed to start with 8 in the tube cruiser, or 8 + 1 if fully loaded. The only way to be certain that a competitor is not overfilling his shotgun would be to have every shotgun preloaded under the watchful eye of an RO. There has been some talk of random spot checks at the line, but I have yet see one. I have also heard that the RO will just count the number of shots the shooter fires before reloading, but this is flawed as well, the RO would need to count the total number of shots, as well as the rounds loaded and the ones left in the gun after the stage to catch an over-stoked tube. I do not assert that there is an alarming amount of cheating going on, but the possibility of allowing cheating has been brought up before as the reason for not making other rule changes, but we overlook this part of our game where it most certainly occurs just because of the difficulty of enforcement. I say we limit tubes to 8, and eliminate the need to worry about possible overfilling. Or the other option would be to do away with the limits entirely and let folks put in as many as they like, possibly just limiting it to a single tube (no x-rails or mag fed shotguns). We do not allow pistols to use longer mags after the buzzer, if we are going to limit the start condition we should keep it limited the whole time like we do with pistols, or remove the limit as is the case with the rifle. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of removing the capacity restriction so that all long guns will be similar. Another strike against the current long tubes are that they don't stay in the drop buckets very well and seem to result in more DQ's. In the past any talk of tube limits has gotten a very vocal response from some of the folks who think that it was an attempt to punish one method of loading. Unless you load 1 at a time, any tube length restriction hinders all styles of loading with the 4 at a time methods requiring a little more care than the load 2 methods. I know that there are many who see a shotgun start as an opportunity to show people how fast you can load 4 after the beep, and limiting tube capacity will get rid of this, but there is always an opportunity later in the stage to show that loading speed. You would just need to shoot a little first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 This seems suspiciously bent more towards a dislike of long tubes than a legitimate concern of cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 This seems suspiciously bent more towards a dislike of long tubes than a legitimate concern of cheating. If so then how do you explain my suggestion to abolish the capacity restriction all together? That would mean long tubes for everyone. Lots of reasons to consider this possible change. Would you feel better if I posted a picture of me holding a shotgun with a long tube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) This seems suspiciously bent more towards a dislike of long tubes than a legitimate concern of cheating.If so then how do you explain my suggestion to abolish the capacity restriction all together? That would mean long tubes for everyone. Lots of reasons to consider this possible change. Would you feel better if I posted a picture of me holding a shotgun with a long tube?Yes I would. I would prefer the shotgun in your right hand and the long tube pinched between your legs in the groin area. Edited January 15, 2016 by TonytheTiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I agree with capacity restriction of 8 rounds for all divisions except open for all those reasons listed and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nguySBR1 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Limit the length to 26" (+/- .5") and capacity to whatever fits in that length. Then there is no confusion on what the capacity limits are, and no easy method to cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 Another easy to police option would be a stipulated max tube length (as measured from the loading port). Same thing we do with pistol mags. the actual capacity number would then not be important, no shell counting at all,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 Beat me to it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racknrider Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 If you restrict tube length, can you run 2" shells and get 3 extra ones in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 max length would be way easier to monitor than # rounds in the gun, but definitely would not make me happy nor the "millions" of others with tubes that hold 9+ rounds. i've spent enough on this game and certainly don't want to spend more to diminish my capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 A hard limit would not require anyone to buy a new tube if they did not want to. Easy enough to plug them. or removing the capacity limit would work just as well, then people would just fill whatever tube they had on without worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 2014 3GN Regional in Texas did a spot check at the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLTD Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I think there should be a lot more spot checks. I have seen/RO'd a lot of "confused" people who think 8+1 means 9 in the tube with an empty chamber start/staged gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtielke Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 If you want to limit the tube to a certain capacity what shells do you use to determine this? My slugs and shotshells are slightly different lengths and then I also bring 3" shells to matches for spinners and other hard to knock down targets. A tube that holds eight 3" shells will likely hold nine 2 3/4" shells. If you do it the other way around then I can only get seven 3" shells in. If you limit the tube to a certain length then you're going to get gamer's figuring out how to load these up with shot and get them to cycle: I think there should be a lot more spot checks. I have seen/RO'd a lot of "confused" people who think 8+1 means 9 in the tube with an empty chamber start/staged gun. Depends on the match, many of the matches I've been to in the last two years allow 9 in the tube on empty chamber starts. I'm not quite sure when that changed or why but I always ask the RO before I pre-load if I know it's going to be an unloaded start. Sometimes the rule book isn't clear on this and I've had the match director tell me it was 9 when the rule book to me clearly says 8. I think more spot checks is the answer and RO's watching the preload table more closely. Most of the time the RO's are monitoring the preload table anyway so why not pay attention to a couple of guys and count how many they're putting in there? If they regularly RO matches they should have a good idea who they should be watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Leave the rule as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 Leave the rule as it is. Why? Is it the easiest to enforce as it is? Does it represent the most safe and fair competition? Is it easily understood and complied with? Give us some reasons as to why it should stay the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Winters Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I am wondering as to what the goal is here. At present, we can run most any magazine limit for rifle. Nobody is concerned that by staying within 140mm limit (again we could have a similar discussion on this) how many rounds fit in the mag. Why is shotgun different? I am aware reloading is a time factor with tube shotguns, but is it a game changer, especially 1 or 2 rounds? Is there a compliance problem with shooters? I suppose we could go with the ability to put whatever length tube a person wants. Really long tubes have their own dissadvantage, ie. barrels, barricade ports, and limited movement areas. Is there a safety problem that needs correcting? I suppose we could rule no mag extensions at all and everybody runs with 4 +1. Rule changes bring on their own set of challenges. Is there a problem needing correcting here? From my perspective, let me know the rules for the match and let's play. Paul : -)# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 What rules? For which match? We have some unified rule-set that I i am unaware of? I am all for the discussion....but we have lot of matches with lots of different rules. Other than the reduced risk of DQ I don't see any reason to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) Ya. Just let MDs decide what rules they want r/t mag tubes. Unless u are gonna check each SG at the start of each stage for mag capacity, does not matter if you allow 8 or 9 rounds at the start, it can be hard to enforce. I suppose One option is to allow limited barrel length, and mag tube length in relation to muzzle . Also mandate 2.75" Ammo. But still up to each MDon how to set rules. Edited January 16, 2016 by Lead-Head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racknrider Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 What rules? For which match? We have some unified rule-set that I i am unaware of? Boy that would be nice. Every club I shoot has a different rule set, even when they're flying that big 3 gun nation banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) When the start is empty chamber I start with 8 in the tube, I KNOW that others are starting with more but there is no recourse under the current prevailing rules to address the issue. I can only assume that people are putting more than 9 in the gun at other times, but it is just not that easy to tell as watching someone shoot 8 and then load with the bolt closed on the mystery shell. if every tube was loaded under strict supervision to confirm the count then there would be no reason to discus this. Pat, as to which rule set I am trying to modify, that is easy, just the ones that I shoot under. Except Ironman, cause I am shooting Trooper at Ironman again this year and won't care abou it's limited rules until I go back to shooting that match like a gentlman. And Tony, my offer to provide a picture was to prove that a had a long shotgun tube, not to provide you with material that could be used for any other purposes. It is just a little disturbing that you got so specific in the way that you would like me to pose. I am pretty open about stuff, but I think I need to get to know you a little better before we start exchanging pictures. Edited January 16, 2016 by Stlhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Xalpha Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Why not use the IPSC rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I'm very disappointed Stlhead, this could have been the start of something beautiful.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I agree with capacity restriction of 8 rounds for all divisions except open for all those reasons listed and more. If they do a magazine capacity restriction for one of the guns we use it should be on all of them. Pistols and rifles too. Seems stupid to single out one gun to have a capacity restriction on. Now if you want to have a magazine length restriction like we do on pistols that would be fine. But the rules need to be consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 If you know someone isn't complying with the rules, did you go up to them and show them the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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