Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[ChuckS]

Fact is if PCC is added as a division without any other stipulations there is nothing a match director can do about it. Unless he has the prerogative to limit a competitor to one division at a time. Which unless I am mistaken does not currently exist in the rules.

I don't think you need a specific rule to decide what your match registration policies are. I think that is within the MD's discretion to decide what divisions will be offered and whether people can sign up for more than 1.

Actually, there are rules that cover this

This is what a MD is required to do:

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division.

Only one division is required for a sanctioned USPSA match. The MD does not even have to offer PCC.

As for competitors:

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

6.2.4 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director, a competitor may enter a match in more than one Division. However, the competitor may compete for match score in only one Division, and that must be the first attempt in all cases. Any subsequent attempts in another Division will not count for match recognition.

6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition.

The MD has authority over multiple entries.

[Shadow]

So I have not seen anyone actually explain why we should change our rules to allow rifles at USPSA handgun matches?

I am the president of the local USPSA club frequent MD and RO. There is more to this then adding rifle rules to the handgun rule book,

The equipment we use dictates how matches are set up. Think about it we have all been to matches where the stages were set up to favor one division over the other.

I can see stages set up playing to the strength of a rifle and not being much fun to shoot with a pistol.

I can see where running and gunning with a PCC would be fun. Not much recoil and easy to shoot. I have shot a few of them and its fun. I might have given PCC a try if I didn't have to pass on shooting the pistol match.

When I mentioned the shot gun you laugh and say you would have to reload to often. The do it in 3 gun They shoot paper and steel. its all figured out. I don't really want shot guns at the pistol match either.

I do not think PCC is a bad idea I just feel it shouldn't be part of a handgun match. I will say it again PCC will change course design and I am not sure we want to go down that road.

I totally agree with AWALZS.

I have no objection at all to PCC matches, just keep them out of the handgun matches!

[Scott Steele]

So I have not seen anyone actually explain why we should change our rules to allow rifles at USPSA handgun matches?

I am the president of the local USPSA club frequent MD and RO. There is more to this then adding rifle rules to the handgun rule book,

The equipment we use dictates how matches are set up. Think about it we have all been to matches where the stages were set up to favor one division over the other.

I can see stages set up playing to the strength of a rifle and not being much fun to shoot with a pistol.

I can see where running and gunning with a PCC would be fun. Not much recoil and easy to shoot. I have shot a few of them and its fun. I might have given PCC a try if I didn't have to pass on shooting the pistol match.

When I mentioned the shot gun you laugh and say you would have to reload to often. The do it in 3 gun They shoot paper and steel. its all figured out. I don't really want shot guns at the pistol match either.

I do not think PCC is a bad idea I just feel it shouldn't be part of a handgun match. I will say it again PCC will change course design and I am not sure we want to go down that road.

I totally agree with AWALZS.

I have no objection at all to PCC matches, just keep them out of the handgun matches!

I agree with this as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nik Habicht]

Matches are gonna get longer. The Guys who shoot two guns aren't gonna care because they are having fun. Those who shoot one gun will just have to deal with a longer day.

I personally am very much NOT in favor of letting people shoot 2 guns at the same time because it will significantly impact their ability to work (reset, RO, score, etc...). This is in contrast to running 2 guns at a local steel match where it doesn't really impact the ability to help run the match.

.

This is spot on!

Fact is if PCC is added as a division without any other stipulations there is nothing a match director can do about it. Unless he has the prerogative to limit a competitor to one division at a time. Which unless I am mistaken does not currently exist in the rules.

There's no rule requiring an MD to allow a competitor to shoot a second gun. There's a provision for allowing it under the rules -- but it's up to the MD.

6.2.4 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director, a competitor may enter a match in more than one Division. However, the competitor may compete for match score in only one Division, and that must be the first attempt in all cases. Any subsequent attempts in another Division will not count for match recognition.

6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition.

May allow is very different from require......

and it gets better from here. There's no requirement that every division must be offered at every match:

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

We're not all shooting in the same area, at the same clubs, under the same local conditions. There's flexibility in the rules to allow MDs to tailor their match to their clientele and to their local (host club) restrictions. So even if/when PCC becomes a full-fledged division, there's no requirement that it must be offered at a pistol match -- especially if there are valid reasons not to allow it. And that same club could decide to run a PCC only match alongside their pistol match, just on a different weekend. Options are good.....

[turbopower18]

i hope uspsa adds the pcc class

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Matches are gonna get longer. The Guys who shoot two guns aren't gonna care because they are having fun. Those who shoot one gun will just have to deal with a longer day.

I personally am very much NOT in favor of letting people shoot 2 guns at the same time because it will significantly impact their ability to work (reset, RO, score, etc...). This is in contrast to running 2 guns at a local steel match where it doesn't really impact the ability to help run the match.

.

This is spot on!

Fact is if PCC is added as a division without any other stipulations there is nothing a match director can do about it. Unless he has the prerogative to limit a competitor to one division at a time. Which unless I am mistaken does not currently exist in the rules.

There's no rule requiring an MD to allow a competitor to shoot a second gun. There's a provision for allowing it under the rules -- but it's up to the MD.

6.2.4 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director, a competitor may enter a match in more than one Division. However, the competitor may compete for match score in only one Division, and that must be the first attempt in all cases. Any subsequent attempts in another Division will not count for match recognition.

6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition.

May allow is very different from require......

and it gets better from here. There's no requirement that every division must be offered at every match:

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

We're not all shooting in the same area, at the same clubs, under the same local conditions. There's flexibility in the rules to allow MDs to tailor their match to their clientele and to their local (host club) restrictions. So even if/when PCC becomes a full-fledged division, there's no requirement that it must be offered at a pistol match -- especially if there are valid reasons not to allow it. And that same club could decide to run a PCC only match alongside their pistol match, just on a different weekend. Options are good.....

Ok.

It seems to me that MDs are compelled to be very inclusive.

I think you will be hard pressed to find a MD that won't allow any and all USPSA recognized divisions to be recognized at his match. Therefore PCC will be an included component at all USPSA matches.

[Nik Habicht]

Matches are gonna get longer. The Guys who shoot two guns aren't gonna care because they are having fun. Those who shoot one gun will just have to deal with a longer day.

I personally am very much NOT in favor of letting people shoot 2 guns at the same time because it will significantly impact their ability to work (reset, RO, score, etc...). This is in contrast to running 2 guns at a local steel match where it doesn't really impact the ability to help run the match.

.

This is spot on!

Fact is if PCC is added as a division without any other stipulations there is nothing a match director can do about it. Unless he has the prerogative to limit a competitor to one division at a time. Which unless I am mistaken does not currently exist in the rules.

There's no rule requiring an MD to allow a competitor to shoot a second gun. There's a provision for allowing it under the rules -- but it's up to the MD.

6.2.4 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director, a competitor may enter a match in more than one Division. However, the competitor may compete for match score in only one Division, and that must be the first attempt in all cases. Any subsequent attempts in another Division will not count for match recognition.

6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition.

May allow is very different from require......

and it gets better from here. There's no requirement that every division must be offered at every match:

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

We're not all shooting in the same area, at the same clubs, under the same local conditions. There's flexibility in the rules to allow MDs to tailor their match to their clientele and to their local (host club) restrictions. So even if/when PCC becomes a full-fledged division, there's no requirement that it must be offered at a pistol match -- especially if there are valid reasons not to allow it. And that same club could decide to run a PCC only match alongside their pistol match, just on a different weekend. Options are good.....

Ok.

It seems to me that MDs are compelled to be very inclusive.

I think you will be hard pressed to find a MD that won't allow any and all USPSA recognized divisions to be recognized at his match. Therefore PCC will be an included component at all USPSA matches.

I don't think so. The BOD wouldn't allow it at my former club -- they had restrictions of lead projectiles only traveling no faster than 1000 fps when fired from a PCC. Most -- maybe. But again, there's no requirement, so if the division truly presents a hardship, don't offer it.

That argument is much easier with a rifle, than it is with something in the same general size range as every other pistol out there....

[pkm]

So I have not seen anyone actually explain why we should change our rules to allow rifles at USPSA handgun matches?

I am the president of the local USPSA club frequent MD and RO. There is more to this then adding rifle rules to the handgun rule book,

The equipment we use dictates how matches are set up. Think about it we have all been to matches where the stages were set up to favor one division over the other.

I can see stages set up playing to the strength of a rifle and not being much fun to shoot with a pistol.

I can see where running and gunning with a PCC would be fun. Not much recoil and easy to shoot. I have shot a few of them and its fun. I might have given PCC a try if I didn't have to pass on shooting the pistol match.

When I mentioned the shot gun you laugh and say you would have to reload to often. The do it in 3 gun They shoot paper and steel. its all figured out. I don't really want shot guns at the pistol match either.

I do not think PCC is a bad idea I just feel it shouldn't be part of a handgun match. I will say it again PCC will change course design and I am not sure we want to go down that road.

I totally agree with AWALZS.

I have no objection at all to PCC matches, just keep them out of the handgun matches!

I agree with this as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I couldn't agree more.. Add a PCC division to Multi-gun or Steel Challenge but it doesn't belong in a pistol match.

[Beastly]

I don't get the pushback. USPSA is US PRACTICAL Shooting Association, who ever said it was limited to pistols?

PCC isn't a magic tool or ticket to winning "overall" - go try it. PCC (including rimfire) has been very popular here in Steel Challenge matches, I'd love to see it in USPSA matches.

Even stage design concerns - I'm pretty sure I could hang on a rope (IMHO straw man, not that we ever do that around here) and safely shoot a PCC if I had to.

MD's and ranges are free to offer any divisions they want, just like there are Production/Single Stack-only L2 matches.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Beastly

[ZackJones]

I don't get the pushback. USPSA is US PRACTICAL Shooting Association, who ever said it was limited to pistols?

I don't either. I holding a PCC side match at our steel challenge match this weekend and based on the feedback I've gotten at the range a lot of shooters, including our USPSA match directors, want to see it added to USPSA matches.

[motosapiens]

I don't get the pushback. USPSA is US PRACTICAL Shooting Association, who ever said it was limited to pistols?

I don't either. I holding a PCC side match at our steel challenge match this weekend and based on the feedback I've gotten at the range a lot of shooters, including our USPSA match directors, want to see it added to USPSA matches.

I am deeply suspicious that it will detract from the experience of the pistol shooters, but I am ready to be convinced otherwise. For sure, when we have allowed shotgun in our steel matches, it turned out to be a time-consuming and annoying mess.

[fayetteflash]

PCC is extremely fun and I look forward to it becoming a division at regular handgun matches. We've been trying it out at a number of clubs in Georgia and it's met with lots of smiles and support. It's up to the MD's how they want to see it played out. Once it's an official division, I hope that people are only allowed one entry. It does slow things down when people are trying to load mags and shoot for 2 guns. Course design seems to work very well for both handgun and PCC. If you don't think so, give it a try. I believe most nay-sayers would become believers if they just went out and tried it. Way too much fun!

[motosapiens]

I believe most nay-sayers would become believers if they just went out and tried it. Way too much fun!

what is fun about it? it doesn't look like fun. I have the most fun when everyone shoots the same gun, like at a singlestack match. (but then I don't think open guns are fun either, so maybe I'm just stuck in my ways)

Edited January 20, 2016 by motosapiens

[Beastly]

what is fun about it? it doesn't look like fun.

You sure don't sound like much fun, but then again I might change my mind if I shot a match with you.

[cferree]

It's been amusing reading all of the post from folks who have never been to a match that offered PCC. Now the world, as we know it, is going to end because of a few people shooting their PCC's at a PISTOL match.

In the late 80's, no one wanted the racer guys at their practical pistol matches. How dare they bring a 10 round Super with an Aimpoint to their match.

I shoot at two clubs that have been shooting PCC side by side with the pistol Divisions. One clubs has shot 5 matches. I believe the other has included it in 3-4 matches.

Here's the take a ways:

• With squads of 12-14, you can have 1-3 PCC competitors ALSO so pistol without slowing down the squad. Only one 30-33 round mag to be reloaded on over half the stages.
• Each match brings out 1-2 competitors who are either new to competitive shooting or 3 gunners who just want to shoot PCC for practice (not shooting pistols).
• As stated by others, safety is easy - come to the line with a chamber flag, shoot the stage, unload and show clear, flag it - done.
• Free Style and Stronghand = Strong shoulder; Weakhand = weak shoulder.
• Since the pistol guys design and build the stages, the iron sighted pistol guys aren't left with "rifle shots".

We're getting more PCC shooters than Revolver and CO combined. You could probably add in L10 too.

One local club is still waiting approval from the club BoD. If they get approval, they'll get 5-8 PCC shooters per match. Another club has a sponsor bringing 2 rental PCC's to their match. The rental fee includes the firearm, match fee and ammo.

FYI, all three of these clubs get 55-80 shooters per match (6 stages), and right before a major, they'll have 80-100 (7-8 stages).

[motosapiens]

• With squads of 12-14, you can have 1-3 PCC competitors ALSO so pistol without slowing down the squad. Only one 30-33 round mag to be reloaded on over half the stages.

that's just impossible. it still takes time for them to shoot, and it increases the workload for everyone else. there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I wouldn't go to a match with squads of 12-14 with some of them shooting 2 guns.

[mosher]

We run a monthly USPSA match, and an occasional separate rifle only CQB match on USPSA style stages (every 5th weekend). Our CQB rifle match actually allows any rifle caliber, 223, 308, SBR, silenced, idgaf, ( no steel obviously.) It is a ton of fun. 40-50 people come shoot it with their rifles. Several of them use PCC.

That said, I'm not a fan of mixing the two in one match.

[Ray_Z]

If I get a vote in this, I really don't like adding a division to a pistol match with rifles. Short, long, or otherwise. In the back of my mind I am wondering if 3 gun nation is more popular than USPSA 3 gun and this is a way to bail it out. Please don't get too upset with me for stating my opinion. I just think pistol matches should be for pistols.

[StealthyBlagga]

I strongly support PCC as a division in USPSA handgun matches. I also strongly object to people shooting two guns (any two guns, even two pistols) concurrently at the same match... it just seems greedy and disruptive to the rest of the shooters - discourteous in the same way as cutting in line. MDs can (and should) insist that any re-entries happen only after the shooter has completed the match with their first gun.

This has nothing to do with the merits or otherwise of PCC in USPSA handgun matches as a general concept.

Edited January 20, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Onepocket]

More money for the clubs? $$$$$$$

Edited January 20, 2016 by Onepocket

[Nimitz]

Like it or not this is gonna happen. We have a new prez who wants it. Looks like lots of guys are into it.

Matches are gonna get longer. The Guys who shoot two guns aren't gonna care because they are having fun. Those who shoot one gun will just have to deal with a longer day.

Or they will go somewhere else where PCC is not being shot ....

I don't have anything against PCC per say but I don't think we should be adding a rifle division to a pistol match ...

A lot of you have been participating in the "do we need to increase participation" thread as well so I'll pose this question to those of you who are all over adding PCC ... Do you think it will increase or decrease the pressure on matches where you guys are already having 70+ shooters at a match & 15 member squads and 7 hr days ...?

[StealthyBlagga]

A lot of you have been participating in the "do we need to increase participation" thread as well so I'll pose this question to those of you who are all over adding PCC ... Do you think it will increase or decrease the pressure on matches where you guys are already having 70+ shooters at a match & 15 member squads and 7 hr days ...?

I will answer your rhetorical question:

If PCC is adopted by current pistol shooters who simply switch from their usual pistol division over to PCC division occasionally (as I and many others I know would do), there will be ZERO net impact... those folks will just have a new and more fun division to shot sometimes, and will leave the range with correspondingly wider grins. This assumes they aren't also shooting pistol concurrently (which I would disagree with, and is not a practice at our matches).

If PCC brings in new shooters, then of course the increased participation will increase the load on existing matches. As I indicated in the other thread, I would rather grow the sport and look to the market to add capacity. I don't agree with the thought process that we should discourage newbies from joining the sport so that current shooters can keep the sport all to themselves. That seems short sighted and selfish to me.

[gng4life]

what is fun about it? it doesn't look like fun.

You sure don't sound like much fun, but then again I might change my mind if I shot a match with you.

Hilarious...

[Ray_Z]

I haven't seen the rules for these pistol caliber rifles. Do they have to have barrels less than 16"? If so they would have to be licensed by the ATF and all competitors would have to have they're permit with them in order to shoot the match. So a qualified person would have to be there to check each shooter.

[gng4life]

I haven't seen the rules for these pistol caliber rifles. Do they have to have barrels less than 16"? If so they would have to be licensed by the ATF and all competitors would have to have they're permit with them in order to shoot the match. So a qualified person would have to be there to check each shooter.

That subtopic has been scattered throughout the ten pages of this thread. No rules yet but supposedly, there will be provisional rules submitted with the proposal.