sundevil827 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Just curious, what "problem" is being solved, and why the need to consolidate divisions? I mean, why the need for a solution where I can't seem to find people saying there is a problem? the main reason for this argument is that everyone agrees on the 4 teams for the college football playoffs, which means we need to find something else trivial to passionately argue about while we're supposed to be working. Okay, I can live with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaCharis Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I watched the episode as well. I'm not convinced you have to eliminate any divisions right now. If they cared about being competitive, someone in L-10 or SS would register in Limited and those divisions would naturally disappear. (When I shoot my carbine with iron sights in Steel Challenge, I register in open because I don't want to be the only one in my division.) But people are shooting in those divisions - why not keep everyone happy and shooting? Single Stack was the largest attended Nationals in 2015 with 414 participants. A lot of those probably shoot other divisions at the local level, but what's wrong with another Nats if it's well attended? Single Stack division also made up 9% of the shooters at the Area matches this year. Not a bad percentage for having 6 divisions. The next largest Nationals was for Production at 375 shooters. It was also the division with the greatest participation at Area matches, with 707 entries, which is 26% of total shooters through area matches. I wouldn't mess with Production division. Even though the guns aren't exactly "off the shelf" and can get trigger work, those guns still does not compare to a Limited gun. I shoot Production with a 2.5 lb trigger, but I can shoot a Limited gun faster - I wouldn't want to compete against one. And if I were shooting Single Stack/against Single stack - there's the major scoring, but then there's a skinny magwell and only 8 rounds. Does the extra reload here and there or standing reload make up the difference that the major scoring would give me? or do I go with minor scoring for the extra rounds, and get the heavier gun and the single action, but have the skinnier magwell... so many differences. Seems like too many to combine the divisions. And L-10, I feel bad for those 5 states. Why rub salt in the wound? Let them compete at Area and Nationals with the gun they shoot for Limited. They are combined with Open for Nationals anyway, it's not like they have a separate event that is under-attended and not able to pay for a venue for Nats. I'd say if people are still shooting it, keep it. Let it die a natural death. Maybe with the climate of today, we will have more people getting involved in USPSA and fill in the gaps in those divisions. Also for people to even start in USPSA, it's good to have a home for their gun that they would feel comfortable shooting in. For now, I would say there is still enough participation to let it be for awhile. Entries in: 2015 Area 1-8 Championships Production 707 Open 678 Limited 597 Single Stack 240 Limited-10 126 Revolver 67 2015 Nationals Single Stack 414 Production 375 Limited 296 Open 238 Revolver 106 Limited-10 85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsb Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Personally, I think USPSA is missing an opportunity with limited-10. Perhaps it's the unfortunate name, that the class originated as a result of unfortunate legislation, whatever, it has become the red headed step child, and it doesn't have to be. Nearly every sport has some sort of entry division, in some fashion production is/was supposed to be that for USPSA. But, there are a large number of people, myself included, that already have stuff that fits the L-10 class better than any other. I personally shoot a Glock 29, from concealment (AIWB, that neither production, nor IDPA allows), with ammo loaded to the same PF as my defensive ammo (that would be MAJOR), in L-10 and I think that others might be interested in doing something similar, if for no other reason than working with their actual carry gear. Whether marketing to this demographic would increase the L-10 participation to the level that would hold these 'elimination' debates at bay, I have no idea. Would it bring in new shooters? No clue, but I don't think that L-10 does that in it's 'Limited for those unfortunate few' guise either. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtturn Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 To all the people who want to "fix" production: It's doing just fine, thanks. How about you leave it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRYJ Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 My two cents. It looks like some people look at it opposite from what I do. I came into this sport, read the rules, decided what division I wanted to shoot, and bought my gear accordingly. It appears to me some guys come into the sport, already have their favorite gun, and want to change the rules to make that gun more competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I just want to stay in my lane shooting single stack and hope the division is not messed with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsb Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 My two cents. It looks like some people look at it opposite from what I do. I came into this sport, read the rules, decided what division I wanted to shoot, and bought my gear accordingly. It appears to me some guys come into the sport, already have their favorite gun, and want to change the rules to make that gun more competitive. If you're talking to me... I never said anything about changing any rules, or even about being competitive at all, I was merely pointing out that L-10 has appeal to more than S_i shooters who live in mag capacity limited states. FWIW, I have open guns, and limited guns, as well as tupperware... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRYJ Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Not talking to anyone in particular. Just something I observed on this and other sites, and in person at matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robot Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think they should just combine SS, L10 and Production into one division and call it PRODUCTION. damn, saying the word "production" so many times just makes it sound funny now. *lol* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R34PER Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) I agree, just allow single stack and L10 guns shoot in production and give it Minor and Major scoring. You can even keep the round count difference 8 for major 10 for minor. Edited December 8, 2015 by R34PER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaCharis Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think they should just combine SS, L10 and Production into one division and call it PRODUCTION. damn, saying the word "production" so many times just makes it sound funny now. *lol* I think you should be shooting in one of those divisions to have any say in whether they should be combined or not. *ahem open shooter* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robot Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think they should just combine SS, L10 and Production into one division and call it PRODUCTION. damn, saying the word "production" so many times just makes it sound funny now. *lol* I think you should be shooting in one of those divisions to have any say in whether they should be combined or not. *ahem open shooter* hey, I shot Single Stack and production a few times and I am classified in Revolver. so there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaCharis Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think they should just combine SS, L10 and Production into one division and call it PRODUCTION. damn, saying the word "production" so many times just makes it sound funny now. *lol* I think you should be shooting in one of those divisions to have any say in whether they should be combined or not. *ahem open shooter* hey, I shot Single Stack and production a few times and I am classified in Revolver. so there Yes, but when you shot your Single Stack did you enter in the Limited division for the greater competition? Or did you enter your SS in SS because of the inherent differences between the guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robot Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Yes, but when you shot your Single Stack did you enter in the Limited division for the greater competition? Or did you enter your SS in SS because of the inherent differences between the guns? I shot single stack because it was nostalgic and cool to shoot a 1911 in 45ACP and carry 8 mags on my belt Edited December 8, 2015 by robot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) 2 Divisions: Open: do whatever you want to your gun within a broad set of guidelines Factory: a list of guns that qualify with no mods ... as the gun comes from the factory, period. Edited December 8, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 How about just L10, it is the most inclusive division after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 2 Divisions: Open: do whatever you want to your gun within a broad set of guidelines Factory: a list of guns that qualify with no mods ... as the gun comes from the factory, period. that sounds like a perfect way to kill the sport. I personally would stop shooting and start my own outlaw matches since neither of those divisions holds the slightest interest for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 2 Divisions: Open: do whatever you want to your gun within a broad set of guidelines Factory: a list of guns that qualify with no mods ... as the gun comes from the factory, period. that sounds like a perfect way to kill the sport. I personally would stop shooting and start my own outlaw matches since neither of those divisions holds the slightest interest for me. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Make L10 a category of Limited and CO/PO/WO a category of Open. Production and Single Stack stand alone as is. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRYJ Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 All this talk about changing divisions. I'm still waiting on someone to say what is wrong with the way it is now. So what if single stack or limited 10 has a smaller number of participants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 my suggestion is to have more matches that are focused on 1 or 2 divisions. no one says you have to offer every division. host an awesome match with fun challenging stages, and only have production and SS. Then have another match the following day and only shoot open and limited. i bet a nickel you'll see bigger numbers in those divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmooberry Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I have kind of a hard time with these types of matches because I shoot Production and my wife shoots Limited. So it makes it tough for us to go and shoot together when matches are specific about divisions. Of course, we're probably in the overwhelming minority in this situation. Its just an observation. Overall, I'm pretty content with the divisions the way they are. I guess I just don't understand the huge push to remove some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 2 Divisions: Open: do whatever you want to your gun within a broad set of guidelines Factory: a list of guns that qualify with no mods ... as the gun comes from the factory, period. that sounds like a perfect way to kill the sport. I personally would stop shooting and start my own outlaw matches since neither of those divisions holds the slightest interest for me. +1 ok, that's 2 opinions ... now lets hear what the other 25,000 members think ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 my suggestion is to have more matches that are focused on 1 or 2 divisions. no one says you have to offer every division. host an awesome match with fun challenging stages, and only have production and SS. Then have another match the following day and only shoot open and limited. i bet a nickel you'll see bigger numbers in those divisions. and where are all these MDs and volunteers going to come from to run all these additional matches? Most of us have enough trouble running one decent USPSA match per month ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 2 Divisions: Open: do whatever you want to your gun within a broad set of guidelines Factory: a list of guns that qualify with no mods ... as the gun comes from the factory, period. that sounds like a perfect way to kill the sport. I personally would stop shooting and start my own outlaw matches since neither of those divisions holds the slightest interest for me. +1 ok, that's 2 opinions ... now lets hear what the other 25,000 members think ... since about 7 of them shoot box-stock guns, I'm guessing we won't be alone, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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