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XL 650 - cases sometimes catching on resizing die

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Could it be an issue with the shell plate bolt not being tight enough?  As small of mass as the indexing pawl is, I wouldn't think it should be causing that much vibration or "click."

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There was no prominent click until not long ago I took aprt the whole machine, lubed, cleaned and put on new springs/parts. 

I am suspecting the spring that returns the index pawl might be too new/strong?  I am going to try putting back the old one.  Also, the indexing ring is new too.   I may put back the old indexing ring too. 

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I forget... has a trip back to the factory been discussed with Dillon? at this point it seems reasonable to my feeble brain.

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that is why we pay the price for dillon's reloaders....

 

I gotta say I like mechanical challenges  so that one has my curiosity.

From when it happens... I also can guess that the indexing cam could do that

can't think of how....

 

hmmmm,.

 

My guess. the index is pushing the shell plate just past the detent.

On the lift the index moves back releasing the shell plate and the ball detent snaps

the plate into position.

 

miranda

 

 

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When reassembling the used press I purchased, I mistakenly put a second spring under the index pawl.  This obviously caused issues with indexing the shell plate.  I had to run the bolt very loose due to the extra tension caused by the index pawl being oversprung.

 

I think you're on the right track looking into the pawl spring and ring indexer.

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Posted (edited)

Here is the video explaining what the "click" is about. 

 

 

When the main shaft rises, the ring indexer is dragged by the "indexer return spring" to the right most position, and during this movement the index pawl's top end will be sliding on the bottom of the shell plate. 

 

I am speculating the "click" and vibration may come from one of the 2 (or both?):

1. The ring indexer is hitting the platform edge too hard when it returns to its starting position for the next shell plate rotation

2. Or, the index pawl is scratching or hitting something on the bottom of the shell plate

 

Edit:  I forgot there is another possible source of vibration - when the index pawl goes into the hole on the bottom of the shell plate, it may be hitting it too hard?  Maybe I need a weaker spring under the index pawl?

 

I did examine my shell plate and the index pawl.  There are clear damage on the top of the index pawl, but I have told Dillon about that before twice and they said it's normal wear and tear.  The shell plate bottom looks decent. 

 

At this point, I am a bit out of ideas what to try.  It's interesting that some 650 owners say their machine does not make that "click" sound when the main shaft goes up.  I wonder what makes theirs so quiet?  That may solve my issue. 

 

Here is the comparison of a used index pawl and a brand new one.  I have a few new ones available, but every time I put a brand new index pawl on the machine, after a few rotations it will have that damage on the top.  Not sure why but Dillon says that's how it's supposed to be. 

 

indexpawl.thumb.jpg.f945411ec21130a225f070824a21b212.jpg

 

Here is the bottom of my shell plate:

 

IMG_20190420_192652.thumb.jpg.548a32e6f615f2d2cef1fb6ac9195a4d.jpg

Edited by Dazhi

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Another video of the issue.  You can see that the first sizing did not crush the case even the vibration jumped the case outwards a bit.  The second one did crush the case because the jumping was just too much.   This also indicates the sizing die has some kind of tolerance but if the case goes out too much, it will crush. 

 

 

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If you tighten the shellplate bolt does it get rid of the click?  I noticed the same thing today on my press when the index pawl returns.  I'm running a lightweight detent ball and shellplate bearing kit.

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40 minutes ago, IndyColtsFan said:

If you tighten the shellplate bolt does it get rid of the click?  I noticed the same thing today on my press when the index pawl returns.  I'm running a lightweight detent ball and shellplate bearing kit.

 

My shell plate is currently rather hard to rotate by hand.  If I tighten it more, it won't rotate I am afraid, but I will give it a try see what happens. 

I tried the washer and plastic ball + lighter spring before.  The result was the same. 

 

s-l500.jpg

 

s-l500.jpg

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19 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

My shell plate is currently rather hard to rotate by hand.  If I tighten it more, it won't rotate I am afraid, but I will give it a try see what happens. 

I tried the washer and plastic ball + lighter spring before.  The result was the same. 

 

s-l500.jpg

 

s-l500.jpg

You try the bearing kit? With th bearing you can tighten the plate pretty tight and it still turns smoothly.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Dahzi,

 

The wear on your index pawl shows it is pushed up too forcefully by the pawl spring (creating the jolt and loud click). If you press down on the pawl with your finger it should be very easy to push it all the way down.

 

The pic I attached shows the pawl on one of my  2 650's (the oldest one) that I haven't replaced in 15 years. Not a lot of visible wear.

 

I measured the springs of both presses and they are 0.42 and 0.44 inches long and fairly weak.

 

Chrs from the Netherlands,

RGA

index.jpg

Edited by RGA
typo

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I will confirm with Dillon again on the index pawl wear.  I may need a lighter index pawl spring.   Thanks!

 

 
 
1
3 hours ago, RGA said:

Hi Dahzi,

 

The wear on your index pawl shows it is pushed up too forcefully by the pawl spring (creating the jolt and loud click). If you press down on the pawl with your finger it should be very easy to push it all the way down.

 

The pic I attached shows the pawl on one of my  2 650's (the oldest one) that I haven't replaced in 15 years. Not a lot of visible wear.

 

I measured the springs of both presses and they are 0.42 and 0.44 inches long and fairly weak.

 

Chrs from the Netherlands,

RGA

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Hi Dazhi, does it take a lot of effort to push the pawl down with your finger?

 

Don't you have a spare spring to try?

 

What I find a bit puzzling however, is that the case in the vid also wants to jump out of the shell plate on the way down. At the moment the primer wheel indexing arm resets. Which makes me wonder, are the platform screws still tight?

Edited by RGA

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Posted (edited)

For me this was something so simple it’s embarrassing. I loosed the bolt on the black block that pushes the case into the shell plate and then pushed it forward before re tightening. Now on the downstroke the case is pushed fully into the shell plate where it wasn’t before. Others may Have more complicated issues causing the problem but for me it was something as easy as that. I suggest trying the simple things first before overthinking it. If no luck there then explore the more detailed solutions.

Edited by hurley326
Additions

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Hi hurley, if you check the vid you can see that what you suggest is not the case here. Not overcomplicating problems however, is always good advice.

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Hi Sarge, I have pretty much every available aftermarket 650 parts, but the bearing kit or washer did not really help. I used the one on the right (from reloading innovations) a while back but took them off because they made no difference. I have the one on the left in my 650 right now, from uniquetech made of oillite, not really helping. But I will try them more see if anything changes.

You try the bearing kit? With th bearing you can tighten the plate pretty tight and it still turns smoothly.


35dc721d92045e891fe24910b65e19dc.jpg

Sent from my LG-h910 using Tapatalk

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Hi Dazhi, does it take a lot of effort to push the pawl down with your finger?
 
Don't you have a spare spring to try?
 
What I find a bit puzzling however, is that the case in the vid also wants to jump out of the shell plate on the way down. At the moment the primer wheel rotates. Which makes me wonder, are the platform screws still tight?
Yes I just checked the platform screws, super tight. I used the alignment tool not long ago and I tightened those screws really hard.

On the left is the used pawl and spring, and brand new ones on the right. I cannot see anything different.c56c3c246207c4e0b80fa15abf82b70a.jpg

Sent from my LG-h910 using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, Dazhi said:

Hi Sarge, I have pretty much every available aftermarket 650 parts, but the bearing kit or washer did not really help. I used the one on the right (from reloading innovations) a while back but took them off because they made no difference. I have the one on the left in my 650 right now, from uniquetech made of oillite, not really helping. But I will try them more see if anything changes.
 

 


35dc721d92045e891fe24910b65e19dc.jpg

Sent from my LG-h910 using Tapatalk
 

 

Try the bearing again. FYI you only need the top washer. Tighten that sucker down until it takes significant effort to turn by hand.

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1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Try the bearing again. FYI you only need the top washer. Tighten that sucker down until it takes significant effort to turn by hand.

I now remember why I took the Reloading Innovations bearing kit off - it requires bending and tunning the ejector wire.  I use the one made of oillite on the left that does not require any ejector wire modifications. 

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I'm curious... 

 

I know Dillon monitors this forum and with this issue being discussed to the length that it has....

 

Why hasn't Dillon, with their superlative reputation for customer service, simply said to Dazhi "box the damn thing up, send it back, we'll fix it".

 

Maybe I missed where this was already offered and Dazhi said "no thanks, I'll just keep bashing my head into a brick wall 'cuz I love the pain, thanks."

 

Did I miss something?

 

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Dazhi said:

Yes I just checked the platform screws, super tight. I used the alignment tool not long ago and I tightened those screws really hard.

On the left is the used pawl and spring, and brand new ones on the right. I cannot see anything different
 

Hi Dazhi,

 

Those springs look correct. I attached a pic showing the springs from my 650's.

 

I think I had it wrong suspecting the index pawl and spring. I played a little more trying to recreate your issue and that happens when I loosen the shell plate too much. The reset click gets louder and the case wants to jump out of the shell plate when de index pawl resets.

 

Writing my first reply I assumed you must have checked the shell plate a zillion times by now? Being one of the usual suspects.

springs.jpg

Edited by RGA

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11 hours ago, Dazhi said:

I now remember why I took the Reloading Innovations bearing kit off - it requires bending and tunning the ejector wire.  I use the one made of oillite on the left that does not require any ejector wire modifications. 

That’s also why most who use bearing only use one washer.👍 Yes the ejector needs tweaked a little but mine has never been an issue.

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Yes my shell plate is pretty tight. Dillon instructions are hand tight then back off 1/8 or something. I only back off about 1mm. Basically it's rather hard to rotate by hand.


 
Writing my first reply I assumed you must have checked the shell plate a zillion times by now? Being one of the usual suspects.





Sent from my LG-h910 using Tapatalk

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That’s also why most who use bearing only use one washer. Yes the ejector needs tweaked a little but mine has never been an issue.
Sarge - I want to try just one washer, I assume it's the one with roller bearing on, or just the flat ones?

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4 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

Sarge - I want to try just one washer, I assume it's the one with roller bearing on, or just the flat ones?

Sent from my LG-h910 using Tapatalk
 

Roller bearing then just one washer on top. Putting washer under bearing makes it too thick.

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