ZackJones Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Steel Challenge isn't USPSA, any additional stages should be for local matches only. The current eight stages are well designed, and test a wide variety of technical shooting skills. We can do that already for tier 1 matches. Personally I would like to see more stages added, especially for clubs that can't support the 35 yard stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) ... Edited November 23, 2015 by RaylanGivens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Steel Challenge isn't USPSA, any additional stages should be for local matches only. The current eight stages are well designed, and test a wide variety of technical shooting skills.We can do that already for tier 1 matches. Personally I would like to see more stages added, especially for clubs that can't support the 35 yard stages. Given the scores I see posted for most shooters at tier 2 & 3 matches I think the 8 stages we currently have are plenty challenging, test all fundamental action shooting skills except reloading and adding more won't really change anything ... Now I'd probably support adding a mandatory reload to Outer Limits in the match match .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 that's what we do. in addition to safety there is a 'target area presented' issue as well. do the math for a couple of the stages, 5 To Go is the worst, and you'll find that due to the extreme angle of the stop plate from the box that if you locate the plate parallel to the box you present a 'significantly' less amount of the target face to the shooter. Sure, it's the same for everyone, but you're not getting a 12" target at 7 yds that way like the stage calls for .... Construct a wall by the stop plate, and replace the plywood as needed (or if your club has more money use a cheaper steel). Why go through all that hassle when you can simple rotate the target by a few degrees and fix everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 that's what we do. in addition to safety there is a 'target area presented' issue as well. do the math for a couple of the stages, 5 To Go is the worst, and you'll find that due to the extreme angle of the stop plate from the box that if you locate the plate parallel to the box you present a 'significantly' less amount of the target face to the shooter. Sure, it's the same for everyone, but you're not getting a 12" target at 7 yds that way like the stage calls for .... Construct a wall by the stop plate, and replace the plywood as needed (or if your club has more money use a cheaper steel). Why go through all that hassle when you can simple rotate the target by a few degrees and fix everything? Where is the bullet going then? Typically bullets fly off at the same angle to the plate in the opposite direction. So it might be going over the side berm. IMO angling the target down is the best solution. And you don't need that much of a downward angle. But that takes new steel, so if a club doesn't have the proper steel they can build a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetback Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 How about a .22 division for holster starts from surrender? Blade tech already makes a kydex low cut PRO holster for the RUGER 22/45. Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Unfortunately that's probably the only one in existence ... Until 22 holsters that you can draw from are as commonplace as those for USPSA it would not be possible to consider .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 1911/2011/Glock conversion top ends can benefit from the numerous holsters available for those platforms. I'd be inclined to allow anyone with a .22 and appropriate holster to use it since a draw should, in theory, always be slower than low ready, so it's not a matter of competitive advantage so much as wanting to practice draws. As for a larger match, indeed, a selling point of .22s is that you don't need to use the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) 1911/2011/Glock conversion top ends can benefit from the numerous holsters available for those platforms. I'd be inclined to allow anyone with a .22 and appropriate holster to use it since a draw should, in theory, always be slower than low ready, so it's not a matter of competitive advantage so much as wanting to practice draws. As for a larger match, indeed, a selling point of .22s is that you don't need to use the holster. I want to get a 22 top end for my open gun so I can shoot it instead of 9mm for that exact reason (to practice draws/transitions for cheaper), but wide body 22 mags are dumb expensive. Edited November 25, 2015 by Gooldylocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 1911/2011/Glock conversion top ends can benefit from the numerous holsters available for those platforms. I'd be inclined to allow anyone with a .22 and appropriate holster to use it since a draw should, in theory, always be slower than low ready, so it's not a matter of competitive advantage so much as wanting to practice draws. As for a larger match, indeed, a selling point of .22s is that you don't need to use the holster. I want to get a 22 top end for my open gun so I can shoot it instead of 9mm for that exact reason (to practice draws/transitions for cheaper), but wide body 22 mags are dumb expensive. Nelson Custom sells a 2011 10 round polymer wide body magazine that works very well for $30. I have 5 of them and they work as well as my Tactical Solutions aluminum wide body magazines, in both a Marvel conversion and a Tactical Solutions conversion. The loading tool also makes them much easier to load than the Tactical Solutions. http://www.nelsoncustomguns.com/pricing/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If the magazine costs less than a centerfire STI mag I wouldn't complain too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If the magazine costs less than a centerfire STI mag I wouldn't complain too much.Except that I already have STI center fire mags haha. I will have to look at those Nelson mags, that is a much better price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 1. Callout position & number of rimfire flags for Showdown & Outer Limits specifically 2. Specify if targets should be parallel to front edge of shooting box or fully facing the shooter 3. Specifically say that your finger is allowed inside the trigger guard but off the trigger. I have an e-mail from Troy saying exactly this but the current rules just say "off the trigger' Is this posted anywhere online? I'm not sure this is a huge advantage for the shooter, but it makes it more difficult for the RO to monitor the start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetback Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 1911/2011/Glock conversion top ends can benefit from the numerous holsters available for those platforms. I'd be inclined to allow anyone with a .22 and appropriate holster to use it since a draw should, in theory, always be slower than low ready, so it's not a matter of competitive advantage so much as wanting to practice draws. As for a larger match, indeed, a selling point of .22s is that you don't need to use the holster. My holster idea is for a separate DIVISION. OPEN and IRON from the ready. OPEN and IRON from the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 1. Callout position & number of rimfire flags for Showdown & Outer Limits specifically 2. Specify if targets should be parallel to front edge of shooting box or fully facing the shooter 3. Specifically say that your finger is allowed inside the trigger guard but off the trigger. I have an e-mail from Troy saying exactly this but the current rules just say "off the trigger' Is this posted anywhere online? I'm not sure this is a huge advantage for the shooter, but it makes it more difficult for the RO to monitor the start... The rulebook simply says "finger off the trigger" at the start. When I asked Troy he said inside the trigger guard but off the trigger was legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 1. Callout position & number of rimfire flags for Showdown & Outer Limits specifically 2. Specify if targets should be parallel to front edge of shooting box or fully facing the shooter 3. Specifically say that your finger is allowed inside the trigger guard but off the trigger. I have an e-mail from Troy saying exactly this but the current rules just say "off the trigger' Is this posted anywhere online? I'm not sure this is a huge advantage for the shooter, but it makes it more difficult for the RO to monitor the start... The rulebook simply says "finger off the trigger" at the start. When I asked Troy he said inside the trigger guard but off the trigger was legal You would have to change it for USPSA too, because it would be stupid to have such a basic rule being different in the two sports. Which IMO isn't likely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 It's already legal in SC and according to Troy it's been that way for as long he can remember. SC and USPSA are not the same and there is no reason for the rule to be the same either ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 It's already legal in SC and according to Troy it's been that way for as long he can remember. SC and USPSA are not the same and there is no reason for the rule to be the same either ... I was reading that you wanted to changed that the finger has to be on the frame, my mistake. But I disagree the basic safety rules should be the same across USPSA and SCSA. It makes it easier for ROs for as they only need to know the specific steel challenge rules. IMO things that need to be the same between USPSA and Steel Challenge Safety Rules RO Commands Gun/Equipment rules for the divisions that Overlap Trophy and plaque requirements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 IMO things that need to be the same between USPSA and Steel Challenge Safety Rules RO Commands Gun/Equipment rules for the divisions that Overlap Trophy and plaque requirements RO Commands are the same with the exception of "Prepare for your next string" that we use in steel challenge. For trophy/plaque requirements I followed the guidelines of the USPSA rule book with minor exceptions such as minimum 3 for category recognition, etc. I would agree that it should be spelled out in the rule book instead of having to refer to the USPSA rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoracer Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 As one of the shooters with bad knees you would think I would be in the camp of turning Outer Limits static, but I am not. I have managed to drop my OL times by around 5 sec per stage in RFRO and RFPO since last year. Down to the low 5s right now and I think low 4s are possible in spite of the handicap. As for comparable stage times my best S&H and Showdown are similar in RFRO at 8.37 and 8.61 respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 the above comment about awards and trophies got me thinking .... in SC we allow both long guns and pistols to compete in the same competition and I think this is unique in shooting sports. I know they are broken into separate matches: main match (all centerfire pistols), rimfire match (rimfie pistols) and rimfire rife (rifles only). however, for the catagory awards: high overall lady, senior, junior, LEO, etc we combine both rife & pistol. Is this really appropriate or should we be separating the rifle & pistol awards? Is it really appropriate (fair?) to be lumping rifle and pistol together? After all, this isn't 3-gun steel challenge ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 As one of the shooters with bad knees you would think I would be in the camp of turning Outer Limits static, but I am not. I have managed to drop my OL times by around 5 sec per stage in RFRO and RFPO since last year. Down to the low 5s right now and I think low 4s are possible in spite of the handicap. As for comparable stage times my best S&H and Showdown are similar in RFRO at 8.37 and 8.61 respectively. absolutely. one of my biggest gripes about SC is this concept some people continually push that Steel Challenge should be setup so that old, fat, crippled (and ugly) shooters can be competitive to win every match .... you want to win matches? Train harder then everyone else and you'll find that the ruleset is irrevelant ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 the above comment about awards and trophies got me thinking .... in SC we allow both long guns and pistols to compete in the same competition and I think this is unique in shooting sports. I know they are broken into separate matches: main match (all centerfire pistols), rimfire match (rimfie pistols) and rimfire rife (rifles only). however, for the catagory awards: high overall lady, senior, junior, LEO, etc we combine both rife & pistol. Is this really appropriate or should we be separating the rifle & pistol awards? Is it really appropriate (fair?) to be lumping rifle and pistol together? After all, this isn't 3-gun steel challenge ... I can get behind a steel master type award for categories. It would also us to reduce the High Lady Optic PCC, High Lady Iron PCC, High Junior Optic PCC etc etc. Which has run the awards ceremony out to 30-45 minutes. Or we can do something similar to what Bianchi does and class and category awards are something you collect after the match not as part of the awards ceremony. Now the issue is going to prizes, for matches that do order of finish prize table you would need a PCC, and a pistol prize table. Or just no PCC prize table and you want based on whatever pistol position you got (which is how the steel nationals deals with rimfire). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoracer Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 That is getting too complicated. Its like getting Participant trophies at a kids team sporting event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 the above comment about awards and trophies got me thinking .... in SC we allow both long guns and pistols to compete in the same competition and I think this is unique in shooting sports. I know they are broken into separate matches: main match (all centerfire pistols), rimfire match (rimfie pistols) and rimfire rife (rifles only). however, for the catagory awards: high overall lady, senior, junior, LEO, etc we combine both rife & pistol. Is this really appropriate or should we be separating the rifle & pistol awards? Is it really appropriate (fair?) to be lumping rifle and pistol together? After all, this isn't 3-gun steel challenge ... I did awards and categories for the 3 match types and then within divisions for most awards. I specified in advance the number of competitors required for division and category recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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