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Slow Motion Comp Testing


kneelingatlas

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This guy does it sometimes. He's kinda good too.

I am surprised that there is so much dip in the atlas vids with the slide closing looks light they are pretty light springs already.

post-56194-0-12736500-1447340585_thumb.j

Edited by Garmil
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Im thinking the reason I grip my guns like that is because I feel like I have more control when firing and getting back on target. I had mentioned prior that the cameras and what you can do with them is amazing! And also mentioned that another member had a plethora of knowledge but I think it got deleted didn't know why. Ih well just my 2 cents. I have a cz sa lower that already has good springs and flat trigger I would like to find an upper and comp. Some of these examples look awesome.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

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I finally got a chance to test out the 115gr JHP + HS-6 Powder. This 115gr + HS-6 load is a little hot as its pushing 175 Power Factor, but even at that its producing less muzzle flip and post shot muzzle attenuation than the 124's. This 115gr setup should get even better when its backed down to 168 - 170 PF. As it is now the dot tracks up slightly then straight back down without much dot "noise" and does not displace much from the center of the glass.

115gr + HS-6

124gr + HS-6

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Hello: I have been saying to try 115's for years. But a lot of open shooters like to follow the leader syndrome. Since the big names use 124-125 they feel they need to. Most of them use 124-125's because that is what they shoot for IPSC as well and there ammo suppliers load those also. One thing to consider is that Charlie is a pretty strong guy who grips the crap out of the gun. I test my springs and use either a 8lb or 9lb ISMI. The Wolff could marked a 7 but maybe a 9. Thanks, Eric

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I know you're big on grip strength Charlie, have you ever tried the Captains of Crush? I'm quite a bit weaker than my wresting days, but I can still close a #2 pretty easy in both hands, so I don't think grip strength is the issue.

Yep, I use the Captains of Crush grippers 2 - 3 times a week. Before my last neck injury that affected my left arm/hand I could easily close the #2.5 with both hands. After the neck injury I can't close the #2.5 any more with my left hand, but I can close a #2. I am still working on getting my left hand grip strength back to what it was, but I think the permanent nerve damage to my left arm/hand will keep me from getting back to 100%. My right hand is still the same strength as before. I can almost close a #3 with my right hand.

From watching your slow motion videos its hard to tell if the excessive muzzle flip is due to actual grip strength, friction on gun, or wrist angles. If you take a slow motion video of the support hand side that will tell more of the story about your grip on the gun. If your support hand is staying stationary and the grip is moving within your hand then it could be a grip strength or friction on grip issue. If your support hand wrist is bending along with the movement of the gun then its usually an issue with your wrist not being locked forward in the canted position properly.

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nice vid charlie. :) given how slow the video is those last 2 shots much be pretty quick? like sub 0.15 split? I always like to see how the gun behaves in 2 fast shots.

it just goes to disprove the theory that you don't need to grip open guns as hard as limited/production guns. To drive them well they need to be gripped just as hard as any other type of handgun.

I'll be keen to see how you enjoy open. I think with the vision issues and low light issues you've had in recent times you'll fine open enjoyable. Using the dot takes vision out of the equation somewhat. Plus the open guns really shine on the longer distance shots. I am still very much in the amateur ranks but I do feel shooting open also made me a better shooter all round.

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I did three more videos today (CFD comp with trigger fixed), A Zone comp, A Zone comp with support index finger wrapped around the trigger guard:

I paid close attention to locking my support wrist and it felt flatter, but the video shows it to be about the same <_< The trigger guard wrap didn't seem to change much for me either.

Edited by kneelingatlas
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I've been thinking about this, and have a question. Our focus is jumping to slide velocity, and we are considering that a more squared firing pin stop may help slow the initial rearward acceleration of the slide, reducing muzzle flip, but how do you know when to play with the profile of the firing pin stop, vs just upping the recoil spring weight of the gun. If he just upped the recoil spring weight an lb or two, shouldn't it reduce the muzzle flip at the rear of the recoil movement? Or would that then just cause too much muzzle dip when the gun returns to battery?

It took me awhile to wrap my brain around the firing pin stop/ slide speed concept. Short version: Small recoil spring weight changes don't do squat to reduce slide speed in a meaningful way.

The firing pin stop shape changes the lever arm distance on that side of the hammer. The total work done by the slide on the hammer spring doesn't change, but with a flat bottom stop the slide has to do that work in a shorter distance/time. Work/Time = Power. Since the hammer gets cocked early in the slide travel, the recoil spring hasn't had a chance to reduce the speed yet, so the denominator is pretty damn small. It's also very close in time to when the comp is pushing down, rather than later after the comp is done.

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Nice to see you added the A-zone.

For me tweaking the FPS provides a huge difference in how the dot and gun behaves. Tweaking the FPS can make the dot go from basically just exploding to tracking in a nice line.

After trying several different curve profiles I've settled on a progressive curve (kind of like a Nautilus weight machine or hunting bow cam) to get the hammer started back smoothly and then keep the force up (as much as possible) to slow the slide down. I use a 16 -18 lb mainspring and depending on slide lightening use a 8-10 lb recoil spring (measured, the packaged values are often off by 1 to 2 pounds).

Also, if the recoil spring is going into coil lock (binding) before the full travel that will screw with how the gun feels and the dot tracking. I had a gun that suddenly started to misbehave and the dot was just all over and then I realized it started right after changing springs. Checked and sure enough the spring was two-blocking before the full travel of the slide was achieved.

Even though it was very popular when I started I could never feel comfortable the the finger on the guard hand position. I still know a couple folks who use it, but it certainly isn't as common to see as it once was. (ever wonder why they made hooked finger guards on 1911 frames years ago? That is why.)

Good thread, thanks for all the work and info.

Edited by Bamboo
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The primary issue with the "Finger on the front of the trigger guard" support hand grip is that it does not promote the canting forward of the wrist. It actually does the opposite which is a big problem. You want the support hand wrist locked forward to eliminate it as a hinge. The second major issue with the finger on the front of the trigger guard is that it puts a strange leverage/pressure point on the gun that is uneven. This usually shows as an up and to the left type of muzzle flip. We want a "even tension" type of grip on the gun that allows the muzzle flip and sights to track in a straight up and back down type of movement.

A proper "thumbs forward" type of grip can produce a near zero muzzle flip level of recoil management. You simply need the proper grip angles and grip pressure. There are no "Magical Tricks" that can be done instead of gripping the gun hard in the proper way. Below is a video of me shooting my Limited gun with 170 PF ammo. Even without a comp to assist in muzzle rise mitigation a near zero muzzle flip level of recoil management is possible.

Edited by CHA-LEE
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