Accuracy is coming...

[MemphisMechanic]

It's in. Took more than two hours to slowly, precisely fit to the gun. The muzzle end and the sides of the hood needed no fitting. However the hood length and the locking lug pad needed LOTS of fitting.

I fit the hood so it had zero slop (literally, you can't feel even a thousandth!) yet dropped into an upside-down slide without the slightest tap. I cerakoted this slide when the gun was new, and had to take a brass wire wheel in an airtool to the openings in the slide to make sure it was all stripped off. That took a bit of extra time, but I didn't want any potential for play between barrel & slide.

The barrel easily spins WWB, American Eagle 115, and my 124FMJ reloads at 1.120"

I polished the feed ramp heavily, chamber just a touch, and every surface on the back of the barrel til it was chrome. I do this to all of my guns to make them easier to clean. Normally stubborn carbon wipes right off.

Fitting the locking lug pad also took some time. The most time, actually. I shaved roughly half of it off - initially you couldn't assemble the gun even with heavy blows from the heel of the Palm - so my gun was very tight here.

I'm thrilled. The gun locks up tight as a bank vault when it's in battery. With a brand new 13lb ISMI spring on the factory rod, I fit the barrel at the locking block just loose enough so that slingshotting the slide from halfway back will barely get the gun into battery. There's no slop between the slide and frame and barrel - it no longer rattles. Feels five times more solid with the barrel wedging the slide & frame apart in the forward position than any plastic gun I've handled. An amazing change to the way the gun feels - as solid as a tight as a really nice SIG, I'd say.

I'll shoot her Saturday and report back in!

Edited March 18, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[Randy Lee]

It's HEEEEEREEE!

So here are a couple shots of the current design of feed ramp, and the machine work done to allow a live round to eject.

Along with one of the other end - I hadn't seen a picture of the very sexy recessed crown on this unit!

It is definitely the latest version. The exit cut for the administrative unloading is the fastest way to identify the update.

-Randy

[Randy Lee]

I asked our guys to reconfigure the feed ramp, as I was measuring some inconsistency in some of the barrels. Our ramp is steeper than factory due to the change in dwell time (which accounts in part for our acuracy).

The next production run will have the clearance cut for loaded rounds, and a gentler angle on the ramp. Most guns seemed to run fine, but I have seen about 10 reports back that some guns were not feeding properly.

Randy, the barrel I ordered this morning from Brownells (with 2-day shipping! Do want!!!)... will it have the cutout and modified ramp, or did they have a considerable number of the older ones on hand? I wonder how long they're keeping these in inventory before they move out.

My gun is one of the earliest 9L's made which surely has a 1:18 twist, so I've been avoiding 147s thus far and I'm excited at this barrel's potential. I plan to fit it when tracking says it will arrive, on Thursday and shoot a few photos of the groups I manage with it in on Saturday morning - I'll run a few mags through it early that morning, then shoot an IPDA match with it.

If the front end of my 9L's slide needs fitting, I'll hold off on that and contact you Friday morning, I suppose, given the issues the guys above were having.

Unless you can describe right now where I'm going to need to remove material on whichever design of barrel that Brownell's is sending me, I'll plan to hold off and call you Friday morning if the muzzle of the barrel doesn't slip in without fitting, just in case the design I receive is different from your YouTube video.

This gun has been cerakoted so I already anticipate needing to remove the coating in all of the places where the barrel is fit to the slide BEFORE beginning to remove material from the barrel, as well.

Also - any suggestions for a recommended OAL for a bullet like the flat-nose 125gr I usually shoot?

Brownells should have at least some of the updated barrels. I know that an order went out a couple of weeks ago. If yours doesn't, you can send it in to us before you begin the fitting process, and we can machine in the mods.

Our current barrels should handle an overall length of 1.142", assuming the bullet is .355 diameter.

-Randy

Randy what is the turn around time to have this done?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

If the barrel is untouched, it usually takes us about a day, since the fixtures are set up for the unaltered locking lug dimensions and can be inserted into the production run.

And if already fit?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

If it has been already fit, it can take as much as 2 weeks.

[Randy Lee]

Randy, if mine was shipped directly from Apex on Feb 1, I'm assuming it would not have had these changes. Can you confirm?

I feel mine has been fit to the firearm correctly but I am having feeding issues upon initial test with my reloads, Montana Gold 124g JHP loaded at 1.060". These feed in everything else I own (oem and aftermarket barrels). I have not had time to go out and test again with additional ammo.

Take a look at the pics that Memphis posted of the barrel he received. If it doesn't have the exit cut on the right side of the chamber wall, contact our office.

[Randy Lee]

Our current barrels should handle an overall length of 1.142", assuming the bullet is .355 diameter.

-Randy

Seems short to me, I normally load to 1.165, not sure if I'd want to load that short in 9 Major.

I'm developing a whole new barrel system for shooting Major. The M&P was not designed to take the punishment of 9 Major. Just my opinion...

[Bkreutz]

Our current barrels should handle an overall length of 1.142", assuming the bullet is .355 diameter.

-Randy

Seems short to me, I normally load to 1.165, not sure if I'd want to load that short in 9 Major.

I'm developing a whole new barrel system for shooting Major. The M&P was not designed to take the punishment of 9 Major. Just my opinion...

I'll be waiting, I'm starting on season #2 shooting 9 major. Other than the broken trigger (which, with your help, I did figure out and correct), and a broken sear loop on the trigger bar, I've been failure free. Too bad I have to wait until you leave CA so I can get a threaded barrel.

[Randy Lee]

Our current barrels should handle an overall length of 1.142", assuming the bullet is .355 diameter.

-Randy

Seems short to me, I normally load to 1.165, not sure if I'd want to load that short in 9 Major.

I'm developing a whole new barrel system for shooting Major. The M&P was not designed to take the punishment of 9 Major. Just my opinion...

I'll be waiting, I'm starting on season #2 shooting 9 major. Other than the broken trigger (which, with your help, I did figure out and correct), and a broken sear loop on the trigger bar, I've been failure free. Too bad I have to wait until you leave CA so I can get a threaded barrel.

We are all looking forwards to leaving bullet button mag releases and 10 round magazies at the border...

[MemphisMechanic]

Let it be known:

That a 124 round nose FMJ can be loaded at 1.169" and pass the spin test in my barrel. At 1.175 it was in the rifling just a bit.

However, as Randy predicted my flat nose 130gr BBI moly coated rounds are another story. At 1.117" they were kissing the rifling just a hair. At 1.115" they spin freely.

Looks like I'll be shortening the second load up. But if you shoot LRN or FMJ bullets, you can keep on rocking whatever length you were already using. Most people around here seem to load around 1.160" if they like to load long, and that puts you around .012" shorter than the chamber's maximum tolerance.

[Randy Lee]

Yesterday, we had a customer whose gun wouldn't chamber his reloads, which were 1.100" oal. The problem was that they were plated flat points that had excessive crimp and bullet shoulder protrusion that would not allow it to seat in any Glock, factory M&P or 1911 barrel that I had on my bench. While I could have throat reamed his barrel to accept his reloads, I believe that accuracy would have suffered if he decided to use other bullets.

Most jhp or fmjs have a more gradual taper to their ogives, so that they fit more easily into the throat of the barrel without interference. We use dummy cartridges with Zero 147 gr jhps at an overall length of 1.142" to check each barrel for clearance.

My experience has been that too much throat lead can allow the bullet to enter the rifling off centerline, which affects accuracy. This has been my anecdotal experience while testing barrels...

[MemphisMechanic]

It certainly does seem to be a pattern that "you're using too much crimp" is the answer to 4 out of 5 handgun reloaded ammo issues, doesn't it, Randy?

[MemphisMechanic]

Saturday was a little disappointing - I ran out of my current jug of Solo1000 just as I installed this barrel. So I committed two sins at once:

I changed more than one thing at a time. (Barrel and new ammo recipe)

I took it to a local IDPA match untested.

And yes, Murphy bit me. Light strikes and one double-feed. However, I don't believe it was the fault of the way I fitted the barrel - I switched to WWB for the final three stages and the gun ran 100%.

I'll post up in a week. That'll be two range/testing trips and one USPSA match, and I'm confident I just need to figure out my new powder and OAL issues because I am effectively shooting a new gun after installing this barrel.

[TacticalReload]

Memphis... can you give an update?

[MemphisMechanic]

Certainly.

It has two USPSA matches and about 1,000 rounds through it now.

The gun feels different. It recoils different. When it locks into battery it locks into battery. Just feels tighter, and given the way the lug added to the underside of the barrel presses down onto the locking block to wedge the barrel up into the frame... it definitely is actually tighter.

Fit yours very tight on the front to back dimension of the hood and the pad underneath the chamber that presses on the locking block. I shot for a nearly unecumbered fitting instead of the "shove slide forward with two pounds of force" method that Randy uses in the video. 800 rounds later there actually is a tiny tiny bit of slop in the system now.

I wanted it a hair loose for a fitted gun, because I want mine to run dirty as hell. But if you want a super tight gun, really try to leave it so tight you're worried it won't cycle and go shoot it.

On my ammo issues:

Installation of an OEM striker spring didn't cut it. I wound up selling my old stock of 9,000 Wolf primers for $20/1000 and federal, Winchester, and even CCI have run through the gun like a Swiss watch.

I am currently loading RN 135 and FP 130gr moly bullets to 1.110" so that they will pass the spin test. That's short. But it's also what I have to do in my girlfriends brand new M&P with the factory barrel.

I have a reamer arriving from a friend tonight in the mail, and I'll be lengthening both chambers to let me load to 1.140" with all three bullet profiles I use. I've loaded dummy rounds with all three of these bullets to that length, since I want a little more case volume for use with Ramshot Comp, WST, and other very fast powders.

And this way my M&P chambers will match the rest of my guns.

Edited April 5, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[MemphisMechanic]

Accuracy wise... this is based on subjective feel and freehand groups at twenty yards so it is probably more opinion than fact, but I believe group size with 130 BBIs is about half of what it was.

I have my factory barrel in my range bag and intend to bag the gun in tightly and shoot 5 groups with the factory barrel and five with the Apex.

The reason I haven't done so yet is because I planned to lengthen my chamber and because I finished off my stock of Solo and haven't completed load development of something to replace it - I'm going to test both Ramshot Compeititon and WST since I have 8 pounds of each, and use whichever recoil impulse I like, provided one doesn't happen to turn out vastly more accurate than the other.

Edited April 5, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[TacticalReload]

I posted this in another thread, but for the sake of reference to anyone who might be looking at this barrel, here are some before and after pics.

OEM BARREL:

APEX SDI BARREL:

[MemphisMechanic]

Distance for that target?

What ammo were you feeding it? If you hand load, do you recall the recipe for it - or at least the bullet used?

[TacticalReload]

Those targets were shot at 20 yards (max for the indoor range I shoot at). I didn't have sandbags so I shot braced on my range bag, which was less than ideal but still reasonable. I'm sure I could have tightened them up some with a proper rest (and better eyeballs) but the gun shoots as good as I need it to. It should be obvious that the gun was a problem before (to put it mildly) and is at least as accurate as other plastic striker guns. I used a variety of ammo... Winchester 147gr FP, Remington UMC 115gr RN, 147gr plated RN handloads, and 115gr Hornady HAP HP. I shot a total of 200 rounds through the pistol in this session. Despite getting dirty (the factory barrel is ported), there were no function issues. As a side note, it has newly installed Apex competition springs, including striker spring, and there were no light strikes. I also added the RAM, but I honestly can BARELY (if at all) notice a difference even during slow fire. At least it wasn't expensive... doesn't matter much since I view the whole tactile reset thing during fast shooting as overblown by a factor of a million and mostly the realm of Glock shooters trying to explain why their guns have "great triggers".

Both factory loads shot about the same. If I recall correctly, the pics on the black shoot-n-c targets were Remington factory 115gr. The shots on the brown paper were the 115gr HAP handloads. The recipe that I use for them is 5.4 grains of Unique with Win SPP. I usually load longer when cooking these up for my Glock since the plunk test show that the chamber is capable of handling ammo that is longer than the mags can hold. However, I had to shorten them up for the Apex barrel because they contacted the rifling. The RN profile bullets didn't have a problem, though, when I loaded them as long as I usually do. In either case, the chamber wasn't "short" because it still took factory length ammo without issue and even my shortened HAP rounds were longer than the manual specs. I find that the HAP bullets are very accurate, but are too expensive to shoot regularly. I use them when I'm looking to take bullet selection out of the accuracy equation. Once I burn through my current stock of so-so plated 147's, I'll probably give coated bullets a try. Sorry I can't be of more help with your load development.

When I fitted the Apex barrel, I went very slowly. The muzzle end barely fit through the barrel... it required a firm push. I resisted the urge to remove metal from this area of the barrel at this point. The width of the hood was fine. The length required removal. After that was almost done, I noticed that I was getting some barrel springing, which was unexpected since I hadn't read anyone else who had this problem. With a little Sharpie (my cheapo replacement for dykem), it was clear where the muzzle end of the barrel was contacting the slide (one spot around 12 o'lcock and two spots around 5 and 7 o'clock). I VERY cautiously started stoning in order to eliminate the springing. Once I was done with that, I found that I couldn't get the slide on so I started on the pad on the bottom. It didn't take much there to get the slide on. It took a little more to get it to the point where you have to apply a little force on the back of the slide to get it to go into full battery when you ease the slide forward. I stopped there.

[MemphisMechanic]

...Sorry I can't be of more help with your load development.

I have a strong fondness for BBI's bullets so I wasn't really expecting too much overlap - I just like knowing what someone else's gun shot well with, and hope that it'll help someone else who might actually want to shoot 115s.

When I fitted the Apex barrel, I went very slowly. The muzzle end barely fit through the barrel... it required a firm push. I resisted the urge to remove metal from this area of the barrel at this point. The width of the hood was fine. The length required removal. After that was almost done, I noticed that I was getting some barrel springing, which was unexpected since I hadn't read anyone else who had this problem. With a little Sharpie (my cheapo replacement for dykem), it was clear where the muzzle end of the barrel was contacting the slide (one spot around 12 o'lcock and two spots around 5 and 7 o'clock). I VERY cautiously started stoning in order to eliminate the springing. Once I was done with that, I found that I couldn't get the slide on so I started on the pad on the bottom. It didn't take much there to get the slide on. It took a little more to get it to the point where you have to apply a little force on the back of the slide to get it to go into full battery when you ease the slide forward. I stopped there.

Sounds like we had identical fitting experiences, with the one difference being that my barrel dropped effortlessly into the muzzle end of the slide. All of my fitting was related to the length of the hood and the pad underneath the locking lugs. I'm sure we aren't the only two guys to use a sharpie instead of a $10 bottle of dykem.

For a split second did you find yourself puzzled when you couldn't get the slide onto the gun without beginning to file / stone down the lower pad? I did. Turned out to go very smoothly though and I'd definitely do another one if my girl's gun decides it's hungry for one someday.

[MemphisMechanic]

One more note: this barrel is faster than the factory barrel on my Glock 34. Since the polygonal Glock barrels are widely regarded as being very fast, that is something I found a pleasant surprise.

Chrono results from the past two weeks worth of load development:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=231522

(Scroll down below the 5th horizontal line for the Apex-versus-Glock post)

This makes me want to shoot the same load over my chrono with the Apex SDI and the factory barrel back to back now, too.

[rhowell309]

Sounds like we had identical fitting experiences, with the one difference being that my barrel dropped effortlessly into the muzzle end of the slide. All of my fitting was related to the length of the hood and the pad underneath the locking lugs. I'm sure we aren't the only two guys to use a sharpie instead of a $10 bottle of dykem.

For a split second did you find yourself puzzled when you couldn't get the slide onto the gun without beginning to file / stone down the lower pad? I did. Turned out to go very smoothly though and I'd definitely do another one if my girl's gun decides it's hungry for one someday.

My battle dropped into the muzzle also. I had to fit the hood width and length. I was actually surprised at the amount of material I had to take off of the lower pad. I started with a stone and quickly moved to a file. I keep a bottle of dykem on the shelf so I was good there. Im headed to the range to do some testing today.

[TacticalReload]

I had to take much more off the hood length than the lower pad. It's amazing how sloppy these tolerances must be on S&W's end considering how different some of the fitting experiences are.

As for Dykem... My dad is a retired machinist by trade and a mechanic by hobby. I've received the "right tool for the job" speech before. However he's the one that told me years ago to just use a sharpie if I don't think I will be doing it often. I'm pretty sure a can of Dykem would last me to the point where it would dry up before I got 10% of the way through it.

[Randy Lee]

We see a lot of tolerance variation from gun to gun. That is why I was not willing to make a "drop in" barrel as it were. I just could not put my name on something that would not show appreciable gains in performance.

The SDI concept was the only way that I could see getting a good lock up in 98% of the existing guns out there. The other 2% are so far out on the tolerance extreme that only a GF barrel would provide proper lock up and dwell time.

As for Dykem, I still have my bottle from 1983. It has been used for checkering hundreds of 1911 frames, fitting 1911, Glock and Browning HP barrels and a host of other jobs...

[rhowell309]

The SDI concept was the only way that I could see getting a good lock up in 98% of the existing guns out there. The other 2% are so far out on the tolerance extreme that only a GF barrel would provide proper lock up and dwell time.

...

Hmmm so most guns will not see a gain with a GF over a SDI? Or am I reading too much into this.

[IntenseImage]

How's this looking for GF ... And sorry for the vertical video - hard to film one handed

https://youtu.be/76L8s-UYfBY

[Randy Lee]

The SDI concept was the only way that I could see getting a good lock up in 98% of the existing guns out there. The other 2% are so far out on the tolerance extreme that only a GF barrel would provide proper lock up and dwell time.

...

Hmmm so most guns will not see a gain with a GF over a SDI? Or am I reading too much into this.

I think too much into it. The SDI will fit 98% of the guns out there. That means that some will require no fitting, some filing or a lot of filing in order to get a solid accuracy improving fit. But there are 2% or so that are out there that have such loose tolerances that only the GF barrels will remove the excess play. So in a manner of speaking, the GF barrels will fit properly in 100% of the guns out there due to the excess material.

Also, the properly machined GF barrel will have more surface area available on the bottom lug to match the footprint of the locking block. The greater surface area contact will typically provide greater barrel stability on the backend.

The fitting pad on the SDI was designed so that materail could be removed uniformly by visual inspection, as the band should appear uniform width once the surface is filed. Any listing of the file to one side or the other becomes apparent as you file it down. Trying to hand file the larger surface of the GF barrel can result in all manner of inconsistency...