What Kinda Accuracy Should I Expect?

[pmd]

So I started some load testing recently with 40S&W and am quite discouraged by my results - velocities are right on but accuracy is not.

My barrel only has about 1,500rounds thru it - it's a 5" Ultimatch in a SVI frame and slide built by a Gunsmith that I have had great results with in the past.

I've tried varying crimp, OAL, Bullet wt.

My 180 Zero JHP (major Load) - 10 shot groups from a Ransom Rest are well over 3"

My 155 MG JHP (minor load) from a Ransom Rest is just over 2.25"

Not sure if I am expecting too much.

What type of accuracy are you folks getting or expect to get when shooting major (165pf+) at 25yards from a Ransom Rest or solid bench position?

Thanks.

Paul

[bulm540]

So I started some load testing recently with 40S&W and am quite discouraged by my results - velocities are right on but accuracy is not.

My barrel only has about 1,500rounds thru it - it's a 5" Ultimatch in a SVI frame and slide built by a Gunsmith that I have had great results with in the past.

I've tried varying crimp, OAL, Bullet wt.

My 180 Zero JHP (major Load) - 10 shot groups from a Ransom Rest are well over 3"

My 155 MG JHP (minor load) from a Ransom Rest is just over 2.25"

Not sure if I am expecting too much.

What type of accuracy are you folks getting or expect to get when shooting major (165pf+) at 25yards from a Ransom Rest or solid bench position?

Thanks.

Paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My SVI has about 25K on it and it still shoots >1" at 15 yds with a supported position ( over range bag). Gun is factory SVI.

[dirtypool40]

In my limited experience, Schueman barrels can be finicky. I would try some other bullets.

I would say that a barrel that expensive (Schuemans have never been a bargain), that new, from a good gunsmith should be under 2" easily at 25y.

Derek Janowicz / Millenium Custom II built me a nice fixed sited gun with using a factory STI barrel. When we got it back from plating the first group went into .950" at 25y hand held, standing.

[tightloop]

try some factory stuff to get a base line and then go from there...my .40 shoots into less than 1.5" at 25 over the bags...STI bbl, a good barrel should do the same...

[DougCarden]

Paul, it is hard to get the STI frame set up in the Ransom, I know this cause I tried working up 9mm loads last year @ 50yds. I shot better groups with this gun off the sandbags following BE's advice than I could setting it up in the ransom rest. I think only twice out of a dozen attempts did I get the right tension on the grip. With those bullets you should be under 2in at 25yds. Try some VV320 or Titegroup and see what happens if you havent already. Good luck, DougC

[Bob Hostetter]

The 40 is pretty accurate, I am getting about 1.5" at 25 yards from an STI with a Bar Sto barrel off of sandbags using Winchester 180gr JHP's. The gun/barrel has about 30,000 rounds thru it.......

[redmercury2]

SV WITH KKM barrel,10 shots 180 zero at 20 yds,1.5 inches off rest with titegroup loads.,loaded on dillon 1050

[ErikW]

IPSC A zone at 50 yards, offhand is enough accuracy for me.

You may find the powder affects the accuracy a great deal.

[pmd]

You may find the powder affects the accuracy a great deal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've tried Titegroup in the above testing - plan on trying WST and Universal Clays tonight. Thanks for all the replys.

[Jasonub]

N320 lead heads pf of 175. 1 inch at 25 meters. ultimatch bull on an sv

[pmd]

I've tried Titegroup in the above testing - plan on trying WST and Universal Clays tonight. Thanks for all the replys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spent some time last night group testing from a rest on the bench and with a Ransom Rest (Ransom Rest groups were better).

Powder - I tried Titegroup, WST and Universal Clays.

Bullets - Mont Gold 155JHP, Zero 180JHP, and Hornady 180JHP XTP.

All the combinations were 168 - 175 PF.

Groups were all greater than 3"

Looks like I'll try lead next -

If the lead heads don't work better ...... anyone looking for a slightly used Ulimatch barrel?

PMD

[BSeevers]

Loaded ammo and a Ransom Rest in that gun should be 1.5 at the max and really the holes should touch. No offense but how long have you loaded ammo?

Reason I ask is its ammo (usually is) or the gun (usually isn't) Some guns prefer a load but some should be grouping real well.

Did you try some factory match ammo?? Buy a couple different brands

[pmd]

Loaded ammo and a Ransom Rest in that gun should be 1.5 at the max and really the holes should touch. No offense but how long have you loaded ammo?

Reason I ask is its ammo (usually is) or the gun (usually isn't) Some guns prefer a load but some should be grouping real well.

Did you try some factory match ammo?? Buy a couple different brands

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bseevers,

No offense taken - I have been loading for close to 10 years - first 7 years was mostly rifle, long range (600-1000yds) rifle and bench rest so I tend to be on the anal side...

I have gotten all my other action shooting pistols and pin guns (9mm, 38super and 45acp) to group ten shots from .85" to 1.5" at 25yards and I am a little frustrated with these 40S&W results -

I am trying to look at all the variables prior to replacing the barrel.

As far as "factory" ammo - I did try some PMC 165 FMJ/FN (it's the only factory ammo I had) last night and the grouping was similar about 3.75" c to c. for a ten shot group.

I plan to try some lead and do plan to buy some quality factory ammo as well.

Thanks for the reply.

PMD

[eric nielsen]

You might try Hornady XTPs. If those won't group, that's it - you have a barrel problem.

[Precision40]

Shooting <1" groups shouldn't be of any concern in practical shooting. As long as your gun can put every round inside the A-Zone or hit an 8" plate everytime you shoot it, then that's all the accuracy you really need.

[Harmon]

3 shot 25 yard group out of KKM barreled Glock 22,

2.25(about...) precision bullets and titegroup powder.

check the crown of the pistol barrel, it should have no dings or dents in it.

now if a S_I wont shoot any better than a poor boys glock, somebody owes you some money!

[bulm540]

The question is, was the barrel fitted correctly???

[DougCarden]

Paul, are your groups concentric? or are the rounds all over the place. Are you getting 3-4 close together and then one or two blowing out the group? With variations in bullets if I have a load that will put 3-4 touching together with a couple of flyers and everything is the same(case,primer, powder, crimp,etc) then I chalk it up to the bullet itself. Try Hornadys and Sierra bullets. If those dont shoot Call Wil Schuemann and pick his brain. I did, and am glad I did! Good luck,

DougC

[pmd]

caspian28r,

I tried two ten shot groups with the 180 JHP XTP's one group was large 4" - The other group was a bit better, but two fliers turned it into just under a 4" group.

bulm540,

I assume the barrel is fitted correctly - something to explore - I do plan to call my smith soon.

DougC,

It's weird - no set pattern with the bullets. I have tested close to 30 load combinations of ten shot groups - some of them are all over the place and some if you discount 3 flyers would make a 2' group.

I have also cleaned the barrel well and then fouled the barrel with the same test bullets and powder prior to testing -

Tonight I tried some Berrys 180 FN and some 180Lead .401 bullets - both the Berry's and the Lead were worst than the Zeros and XTP's.

I also tried a couple ten shot groups with Factory 180 Hydrosok HP's - with these I watched where the shots were going - the first four were almost touching and then the next 6 opened right up.

I did e-mail Wil earlier this week - he's been great and very quick with a replys (fyi - I use his barrels in 4 other pistols and they are all tack drivers..) . Wil talked a bit abou phyics and then about the need for a larger dia bullet .401 for jacketed and .401-.402 for lead. ...

I guess the reason I want an accurate pistol is so that I don't go to a match and say it was the pistol - if I have a bad match I don't want my equipment to be the excuse/reason (eliminate the variables...)

Thanks for the replys - looks like I may start shooting my G35 instead

[Flexmoney]

- barrel fit/lock up

- bad barrel

- bad crown

- something wrong in YOUR press

[Harmon]

-  barrel fit/lock up

-  bad barrel

-  bad crown

-  something wrong in YOUR press

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

since it wont shoot any load accuratly, even factory ammo, i would figure it would be one of the first three problems flex pointed out.

when a quality pistol wont group with hydrashocks?? sounds like a dud barrel.

[DougCarden]

Paul, I hear you brother!

Since you are not having any group together there is only a couple of reasons, fit of the barrel, the end of chamber (freebore area) where the bullet goes into the chamber. You can also check for the barrel bushing "springing" by turning the slide upside down,and installing only the barrel and bushing. Then take the barrel forward, out of battery, and then slide it back so it locks up. It should drop in smoothly, if it doesnt, or requires some pressure to lock up the bushing it self might not be correct.

I went through this with my 9x19 XXXbrand barrel last year. I even sent it back to the factory to check it out. He sent me a group back he shot which measured around 1.5 inches at 25yds. None of the rounds touched and were barely in a circular pattern. Realize that I am particular about reloading and consulted with Sierra before loading my ammo, using their great bullets along with XTPs and Gold Dots, along with load recipes from some Bianchi masters. Bullets ranges from 115gr jhp to 147 jhps. I could only get the gun to shoot 2inches at 50yds with a lead bullet load bullet sized .3565. with a small circular pattern with one or two not touching the one hole group area. I was shooting a Schuemann super barrel before that barrel and any load in the gun was a small circular pattern at whatever distance! That is what frustrated me with my XXX brand barrel. The last barrel I put in for a friend was a Schumann classic 9x19, and the groups with the same ammo was cut in half compared to my XXXbrand barrel! Needless to day I will be buying Schuemann in the future. You could always check with Wil and see if you can send either the barrel to him or maybe the gun and he can figure out what is wrong. I have been really happy with his knowledge and have a AET 6in. barrel in the safe, just waiting to go into my 9x19 Bianchi gun someday!

Good luck with your quest! DougC

[BSeevers]

Its the gun I think. You seem to have a good handle on reloading skills. You prove it by shooting good factory ammo.

Do you need 50 yard 2 inch groups?

Yes you do. I look at accuracy as a "fudge"factor. If you have a four inch grouping gun then You might be getting "C"s or worse, misses you don't deserve. Is it something to be obsessive about, NO, but think about how wide the A zone is relative to your guns capability. That's one reason to pay $2500 for a racegun.

Now truth is we shoot 90% at 20 yards and less, so the "fudge" factor isn't as glaring and large but its there. Don't forget partial targets add more accuracy concern.

[kevin c]

What BSeevers said...

While I might not need it all the time, it's nice to have the accuracy. Anyway, I think it a valuable skill to be able to shoot 2" groups at 50 yds (actually, more like 1" at 25 yds, since it's getting too hard to even SEE the target out there), and I don't think that you can develop that skill if the gun itself can't do it.

I have an Ultimatch and a Limcat in .40. They'll both do under 1.5" at 25 with even my practice ammo, despite there being 30K plus rounds through each.