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alma

Adding Weight in Carry Optics

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Would it be legal to add internal wight to a CO gun?

Since the weight limit is 35 OZ I assumed that we would be free to make internal modifications to get the weight up but the new Production ruling on grip plugs made me question that.

Specifically DNROI mentions a prohibition on adding "adding significant weight" and mentions plugs weighing more than 0.5oz being prohibited.

I do not understand where the "adding significant weight" or the 0.5oz came from but he references them as if they are somewhere else in the rulebook.

If legal my intent would be to add lead or brass internal to my CO gun to get it closer to the 35 oz limit.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=34

"The plastic plug that fits flush (extends no more than 0.10") with the heel of the grip is allowed. Plugs that extend below the heel like the Scherer polymer slug plug or other similar models are not allowed. Metal, brass or the Seattle Slug plugs are not allowed either. External plugs which alter the grip profile or extend past the bottom of the grip are PROHIBITED. Plugs which add significant weight to the gun are PROHIBITED. Special Notes/Clarifications:Per existing NROI ruling, a plastic plug which fits flush (+/- 0.1”) with heel of the grip IS allowed. For purposes of this interpretation, a plug weighing more than 0.5 ounce is considered “adding significant weight”. Applies to any Production Division firearm."

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Production limits weight to within 2oz of the weight published in the Approved List. I guess since 0.5oz is 25% of the allowable 2oz additional weight for Production, they considered that the "significant" limit. The ruling specifically states that it applies to Production Division guns, but it's also from before CO existed.

I found this little nugget buried in D7, 21.5 that would seem to exclude you from adding weight above the 2oz Production limit (emphasis mine):

Guide rods are considered an "internal part" and may be modified and/or replaced with OFM or after-market guide rods even though part of the guide rod is externally visible when the gun is in battery. Note that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and relevant.

Combined that with the note at the end of D7 declaring:

UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED MODIFICATION.

This would indicate that, unless NROI publishes a ruling that weight may be added to CO guns up to the 35oz limit, you are restricted to allowed modifications that bring you to no more than 2oz above the Production List weight.

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I am very confused. Maybe this is feedback we need to get to the Area Directors to ensures that they clean up the language to ensure we can add weight. It seemed like the intent was to allow everything to meet at 35oz but I don't know how together there within the rules as specified.

Edited by alma

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My email to my AD Rick Steele

On Aug 5, 2015, at 3:26 PM, A.T. Barr <XXXXXXX@me.com> wrote:
Hello Rick, I know the Maximum of Carry Optics is 35 oz. with an empty mag.
So, my G19 is approximately 29 oz. with a RMR and a magazine.
So, can I add 5.5 oz of weight, for a total of 34.5 oz. and still shoot Carry Optics?
A.T.
His reply
Hi A.T.
Yes you can add weight to get to 35 oz. but it would have to be internal. If you look at the appendix, it was copied from the Production appendix with modifications for Carry optics. So with that being said, I can see a tungsten guide rod if you meet the weight requirement.

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My email to my AD Rick Steele

On Aug 5, 2015, at 3:26 PM, A.T. Barr <XXXXXXX@me.com> wrote:

Hello Rick, I know the Maximum of Carry Optics is 35 oz. with an empty mag.

So, my G19 is approximately 29 oz. with a RMR and a magazine.

So, can I add 5.5 oz of weight, for a total of 34.5 oz. and still shoot Carry Optics?

A.T.

His reply

Hi A.T.

Yes you can add weight to get to 35 oz. but it would have to be internal. If you look at the appendix, it was copied from the Production appendix with modifications for Carry optics. So with that being said, I can see a tungsten guide rod if you meet the weight requirement.

Ah, but that does not carry any weight (no pun intended) unless it comes from the DRNOI. Unless it is published as such, by the DRNOI, then you might be shooting open instead of CO.

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I would definitely wait for a ruling from DNROI on this issue. I suggest contacting them after Nationals as I doubt you will get an answer in the next week or so as Troy is working in Florida on the back to back Nationals.

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The reply A.T. got from his AD isn't consistent with the statement in D7 that D4-18 (the 2oz over listed weight rule) is still applicable to CO.

He is, however, only suggesting increasing weight by swapping heavier internal components, not by actually adding weights, such as lead or brass in the grip or frame, for example.

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I just don't get the source for "no I internal slugs over .5oz"

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My email to my AD Rick Steele

On Aug 5, 2015, at 3:26 PM, A.T. Barr <XXXXXXX@me.com> wrote:

Hello Rick, I know the Maximum of Carry Optics is 35 oz. with an empty mag.

So, my G19 is approximately 29 oz. with a RMR and a magazine.

So, can I add 5.5 oz of weight, for a total of 34.5 oz. and still shoot Carry Optics?

A.T.

His reply

Hi A.T.

Yes you can add weight to get to 35 oz. but it would have to be internal. If you look at the appendix, it was copied from the Production appendix with modifications for Carry optics. So with that being said, I can see a tungsten guide rod if you meet the weight requirement.

That would be akin to shooting SS in a major match using a DOH...

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My email to my AD Rick Steele

On Aug 5, 2015, at 3:26 PM, A.T. Barr <XXXXXXX@me.com> wrote:

Hello Rick, I know the Maximum of Carry Optics is 35 oz. with an empty mag.

So, my G19 is approximately 29 oz. with a RMR and a magazine.

So, can I add 5.5 oz of weight, for a total of 34.5 oz. and still shoot Carry Optics?

A.T.

His reply

Hi A.T.

Yes you can add weight to get to 35 oz. but it would have to be internal. If you look at the appendix, it was copied from the Production appendix with modifications for Carry optics. So with that being said, I can see a tungsten guide rod if you meet the weight requirement.

That would be akin to shooting SS in a major match using a DOH...

What a smart ass you are! :^) See you soon Buddy!

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Does that mean if I can get a steel framed gun under 35oz with "internal modifications" I can shoot it in CO?

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I would say, No; I think the items in red below would prevent that;

21.2b prevents any removal of material from the slide other than that required to mount the optic, so if extra material was removed that was not necessary than it would be excluded from Carry Optics, and the Special Conditions clause will prevent any removal of material from the frame as its not explicitly allowed in the rules.

21

Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)
Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation, which authorizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules-clause or published interpretation, the RM shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Carry Optics use and shall move the shooter to Open Division.
21.1
Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function.
Because internal modifications are currently very difficult to enforce, NROI now deems that this clause means, “INTERNAL modifications which do NOT conflict with other clauses of this appendix are NOW ALLOWED.”
Special Notes/Clarifications:
• See 21.3 for specifics with regard to slides.
• See 21.4 for specifics with regard to barrels.
• ALL factory safety mechanisms, whether internal or external, must remain functional.
• See 22.2 for specifics on external safeties.
• Per existing NROI ruling, any “internal” modifications which result in a visible change to the external appearance of the gun when it is in battery REMAIN PROHIBITED unless specifically allowed by the plain language herein.
21.2b
Milling of slide — only as required to insert optical sights
A slide may be modified specifically for the purpose of installing optical sights, and for no other purpose.
22
Specifically prohibited modifications and features
Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Carry Optics Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation, which specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division.
Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in Carry Optics division is specifically prohibited.
Special conditions:
— Semi-Auto pistols only
— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal,
— Unless specifically authorized above, modifications are prohibited.
— A handgun may be approved specifically for Carry Optics division provided that the model of the
pistol used is an approved Production Division model AND meets Carry Optics criteria. Any pistol that is not on the approved Production list, but meets Carry Optics criteria must submit a Manufacturers Declaration Form to DNROI stating that a minimum of 500 complete handguns have been manufactured and are available to the general public
— Anyone signing up for Carry Optics is declaring minor regardless if the ammunition makes major at the chronograph. Should they be moved to another division, they will shoot minor for the entire match or sub-minor should their ammo fail to meet the minimum.
— UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED MODIFICATION.

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After doing a little more research, I think it's doable. If the weghts on the production list are close, a 75b is just under 35 oz. A J-Point is 0.5 oz. By the time you remove the sights and mill the slide, I bet you've already made weight for the J-Point. If not, a plastic guide rod and some light weight grips should be enough to get under the weight requirement.

I might just have to do this. :ph34r:

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I'd weigh the gun first (with a magazine inserted). I suspect it may come in under 35, and CZ rounded up the weight.

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I'd weigh it regardless. Another member commented about his M&P actually weighing MORE than the posted weight.

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Hello: Let the games begin. I wonder what gun maker is going to make there gun right at 34.9ozs, I vote CZ. Let the arms race begin for Carry Optics! Thanks, Eric

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Hello: Let the games begin. I wonder what gun maker is going to make there gun right at 34.9ozs, I vote CZ. Let the arms race begin for Carry Optics! Thanks, Eric

My thoughts exactly. I didn't want to say it earlier because I would have been called a hater again. So if I understand it guys wanted a cheap alternative to open that was not going to be an arms race. Now we see an arms race evolving already and shooters trying to dissect the rules to find a weak spot to take advantage of. What happened to this simple alternative to open?

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Kevin, I think HQ made it a race when they put a weight limit on it instead of "production as is, with a dot on the slide." How did they make something that should have been that simple, so complicated?

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Kevin, I think HQ made it a race when they put a weight limit on it instead of "production as is, with a dot on the slide." How did they make something that should have been that simple, so complicated?

Asking questions like this of HQ is kind of silly.

Is it Jan. 1st yet?

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Kevin, I think HQ made it a race when they put a weight limit on it instead of "production as is, with a dot on the slide." How did they make something that should have been that simple, so complicated?

This.

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I think that the results of the Production Nationals have busted the myth that a heavier gun offers any advantage. It's the competitor's skill that wins matches, not a few ounces.

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Kevin, I think HQ made it a race when they put a weight limit on it instead of "production as is, with a dot on the slide." How did they make something that should have been that simple, so complicated?

This.
+1

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Kevin, I think HQ made it a race when they put a weight limit on it instead of "production as is, with a dot on the slide." How did they make something that should have been that simple, so complicated?

This.
+1

exactly

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My assumption is that the 35oz rule was supposed to function like the proposed Production Max weight proposal where you would be free to add weight up to that limit, but without the supporting rules language it looks like we are dead in the water. Hopefully this is something that can be addressed along the way.

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Hello: I still say leave it open with little rules. The only ones should be 10 rounds and a slide mounted optic. That way revolvers can play, production guns can play, or even 1911's with slide mounted optics. Having a weight limit and getting your gun there will open up lots of tricks to add weight and cost as well. Thanks, Eric

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