Stock 2 failure to extract issue

[johnbu]

How firmly held is the brass by the extractor?

 

 

 

The vid is my CO top.  test yours, see how it holds brass.

 

Also, old brass can have chewed up rims or other problems.  be sure to inspect the match brass

 

And, the chamber can be fouled or rough. Clean it and (if rough)  spin a tight patch with "Blue Magic " in the chamber to VERY VERY LIGHTLY smooth rough edges.  But, proceed at your own peril. If empty cases fall out... the chamber isn't your issue and should be left the heck alone.

[Shmella]

Brass is held in firmly just like the video. I'll check the chamber but I dont think that is the problem. It happened with RP brass twice last practice session, and also with once fired, great condition same headstamp Nickel Speer which is what I use for matches. It ran good with the speer for about 1000 rounds or more but will occasionally do the same thing even with those cases.

[Shmella]

I don’t have a pic of my extractor so I will use the one from this thread. One thing I noticed was it is rounded like on the edge that holds the rim. (The yellow line represents what I’m talking about) so I tried to flatten that out slightly. 

[Shmella]

Like this. 

[Shmella]

I also took some material off in this direction. I don’t know if any of this will help or hurt yet so I’m not recommending it, just documenting. I’ll post back with results soon. 

[SCTaylor]

@Shmella dunno man, I wish you luck though! I've had 1 fail to extract in practice but so far that is it... Hope I didn't just jinx myself!

[johnbu]

2 hours ago, Shmella said:

I also took some material off in this direction. I don’t know if any of this will help or hurt yet so I’m not recommending it, just documenting. I’ll post back with results soon. 

The "pad" below the hook is where i would have removed material. I would also polish the flat surfaces so it can pivot easier. The roll pin could also be hampering rotation from dirt,  roughness, etc. Polish the hole and the middle of the pin where it pivots. Check it for straightness too.

 

You did check fired brass falls out?  (wasn't paying attention ).

 

If everything is clean, fired brass falls out and it holds tight (as in the vid), i would expand the search. What recoil spring? Is it "normal " or "longslide"? At 8# the LS spring will coil bind, cause short stroking and issues. In my evaluations,  the LS and normal are NOT interchangeable (some say LS is 2# heavier and interchangeable-- i disagree. Ymmv).

 

How are your mags? All presenting rounds at the same height and angle?

 

Is the ejector on the sear cage in good shape? Not bent, broke or shortened?

 

Are your rounds all well behaved ? Same PF, same oal,  pass guage test etc?

 

Your problem is tough to diagnose long distance, so some of this is just random possibilities. Maybe helpful....maybe will spur thought... maybe just noise! Anyway,  good luck.

[Shmella]

Polished the Extractor flat surfaces to some degree, also polished the pin that holds it. Fired brass falls out (I'll check again) I did file the pad for more tension but at this point there seems to be more than enough tension although I guess I could add more and see what happens. Mags are in great shape and this malfunction occurred when they were brand new, and now that there are a couple thousand rounds through it as well. The fired case never makes it out of the barrel so I don't think the ejector is in play. I guess I will just mess around with adding more tension to the extractor and see what happens along with my reshaping attempts. I just don't want to wear out this extractor and have to start all over again in a few thousand rounds. This seems to have only happened to 2015 or newer guns according to the posters on here who have dealt with the same issue. Im thinking about getting a couple more extra power extractor springs and clipping a coil to see if that helps. My gun was running malfunction free for 1500 rounds or so but it was all same headstamp once fired. So I dont know if I ever did fix the problem by increasing tension or I just got somewhat lucky in finding a headstamp that works a majority of the time or not. My ammo is all same PF, same OAL, same bullet, all loaded on a 1050/Mark7 all gauged. 

[kernelofwisdom]

I am literally having the same issue, but mine is basically a off the shelf Stock 2 Xtreme. I was hoping the extra power extractor spring would fix it, but your story is making me doubt it is the answer. I am using 124 Blue's at 1.1". I think I may try to ream the barrel to make more forgiveness for long rounds if the spring doesn't work.

[kernelofwisdom]

Any progress @Shmella?

[Shmella]

@kernelofwisdom

I only got to put 100 rounds through it but those worked fine. As I put more rounds through it Ill let you know.

[Shmella]

Polish the chamber of the barrel. I think this has something to do with it. Some fired cases drop in and out of the barrel, and some are tight.

[Shmella]

@kernelofwisdom Did you try an extra power spring yet and file the tab? I think the roundness on the top side of the extractor attributes to the problem as well.

On 12/7/2017 at 9:08 AM, Shmella said:

Like this. 

 

[kernelofwisdom]

I added the extra power extractor spring and it didn’t work. I’m going to get the chamber reamed by patriot defense after the holidays. My extractor seems to be in good shape but maybe I’ll try and file it flatter like you say. However, I always thought that round needed to be in there to help with the feeding.In the meantime I recently rounded the interrupter on the slide and checked all my mags for feed lip width. We’ll see if that works. @Shmella

Edited December 13, 2017 by kernelofwisdom

[Shmella]

@kernelofwisdomthe roundness on the bottom where the round feeds never bothered me but the roundness in the opposite end did. I also think filing in the direction in the photo below helps get a clean start on achieving a flatter hook. 

On 12/7/2017 at 9:11 AM, Shmella said:

I also took some material off in this direction. I don’t know if any of this will help or hurt yet so I’m not recommending it, just documenting. I’ll post back with results soon. 

 

[Avenida]

I am having the exact issue described in this thread!

I am getting really frustrated with this pistol, thinking of getting rid of the entire rig I just spent a fortune on seems to be an option with every dissapointment.

 

The failure is very random and it can happen in 10 rounds or it can happen in 200. Last night I had 2 in 1 match and cost me a lot getting 3rd place, not fun when the gun lets you down.

 

I wish we could have Eric G chiming in with some feedback here. My gun is 2017 make and it has less than 1500 rounds through. It does it with all kinds of ammo, it does not matter what and it has done since new.

 

---------

 

Here is my theory:

 

At first I was attributing this to perhaps weak magazine springs and the slide (breech face leading edge) pushing the 2nd round forward, however, this is unlikely because:

-The barrel tilts upon unlocking, during this motion the brass does not stay in CHAMBERED position upon extraction, in fact, the brass sits a little lower o the breech face. Therefore whenever you are testing extraction tension, do not push brass all the into the channel as this is not where brass sits during extraction.

-when a round is fired, the 2nd round is below the breech face, therefore even if it had been pushed forward by the slide/breech face edge the likelihood of the 2nd round blocking the extraction of the brass is impossible at this point as in it is physically impossible. They are not touching each other. I have confirmed this doing in home experimented with hand loaded dummy rounds.

-Right before the next step, ejection happens.

-The 2nd round does not come up pushed by the magazine spring until the slide travels all the way back, this is created by physics again  and it is only at this point that it could block the brass from being ejected, however, due to timing, this is again physically impossible. Properly retained brass would have ejected at this time.

Which is why Tanfoglio does not bother in polishing the breech face (it is a nice thing to have though, it certainly adds a 0.00001 of reliability, but it is not the cause of the malfunction)

 

In other words: the breech face, the slide rib or the breech face angle cut, magazines or magazines springs are not creating this malfunction.

 

Fix:

 

The fact that the brass is left in the chamber is an indication that the ejector is slipping on the brass and not extracting it. This can be created by:

Weak extractor spring

Improperly tuned extractor (unlikely in my opinion)

Bent / deformed /worn extractor hook

 

Again, this is my theory and I am not claiming that every gun with this issue will be the same.

 

This is not considering any other type of FTF or FTE but the one we are describing in the first post.

 

--------

 

Historically, this was an issue back in 2015 due to Tanfoglio having some tooling issues and chambers where cut below SAAMI specs, therefore, upon firing a round, the brass would expand around the chamber very tightly and would not extract, ejector would slip and there you go you have a jam.

 

My gun is 2017 so I am hoping my chamber is within specs.

 

I just bought a few wolf extractor springs, I am going to give this a try. Next step if this does not work is contacting local rep for a prompt solution

 

We will see how it goes.

 

looking forward for some input.

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Avenida

[IHAVEGAS]

9 minutes ago, Avenida said:

 

 

My gun is 2017 so I am hoping my chamber is within specs.

 

 

 

Hoping does not tend to work well for me  . I had Patriot Defense get both my barrels in spec, $30.00 + shipping was worth it for me, there are also other folks who offer the service and have good reputations. 

 

Were it I, I'd contact the local rep without delay. Would not bet on that leading to a solution but sometimes it can, and you feel really dumb if you get a prompt solution after beating your head against a wall.

 

Next step would be to send the gun off to PD or another gunsmith with expertise in Tanfo's. 

 

Best of luck. It would be nice for all of us if Tanfo would up their game on manufacturing tolerances. 

[Tanfastic]

6 hours ago, Avenida said:

My gun is 2017 so I am hoping my chamber is within specs.

 

 

I have TWO 2017 Stock II's and both barrels were out of spec (tight) and had to be reamed.  It sounds like you haven't done the "plunk test" with your ammo yet, so just do that and verify if your ammo is tight in the chamber.  If it is, don't pass GO until you have your barrel reamed, it's cheap and easy to do.  

[MissionaryMike]

I really loved my Stock 2s, besides all the various reliability issues I had with them, including extraction.  I mean, they felt so good in the hand, looked handsome, shot very accurately.  But damn, so many issues. Good luck buddy. I hope it works out for you, as it has for many others.  It wasn’t worth all the trouble for me. 

[kernelofwisdom]

I think the barrel reaming will be the final answer for me. I haven’t had an issue since I checked my mags for feed lip width. I adjusted two narrower and just shot those two mags for 200 rounds with no issues. Also the rounding the breach face edge seemed to help.  The extra power extractor spring did not make a difference for me. It still continues to be a random failure as I think the worst case brass, a long round, and the tight chamber make it just common enough to be frustrating. Hence, just reaming the chamber is left as I have done everything else. It would be nice to see if anyone who has reamed chambers have extraction issues.

[Avenida]

6 hours ago, Tanfastic said:

 

I have TWO 2017 Stock II's and both barrels were out of spec (tight) and had to be reamed.  It sounds like you haven't done the "plunk test" with your ammo yet, so just do that and verify if your ammo is tight in the chamber.  If it is, don't pass GO until you have your barrel reamed, it's cheap and easy to do.  

 

The plunk test seems fine, I can load my 147 to 1090 col and they will drop in and out.

Perhaps there is something else I could add the the plunk test? I am just putting a round in, flipping barrel upside down, and it comes out on its own.

 

 

[Avenida]

59 minutes ago, kernelofwisdom said:

I think the barrel reaming will be the final answer for me. I haven’t had an issue since I checked my mags for feed lip width. I adjusted two narrower and just shot those two mags for 200 rounds with no issues. Also the rounding the breach face edge seemed to help.  The extra power extractor spring did not make a difference for me. It still continues to be a random failure as I think the worst case brass, a long round, and the tight chamber make it just common enough to be frustrating. Hence, just reaming the chamber is left as I have done everything else. It would be nice to see if anyone who has reamed chambers have extraction issues.

 

Yes, people I know here, had this occurrence (much more obvious and notorious than in my gun) so they had the chamber redone. The gun I know was a stock 3 and it is now 100% reliable.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

8 hours ago, Avenida said:

 

The plunk test seems fine, I can load my 147 to 1090 col and they will drop in and out.

Perhaps there is something else I could add the the plunk test? I am just putting a round in, flipping barrel upside down, and it comes out on its own.

 

 

 

It’s called “plunk and spin” for a reason:

 

To determine how long you CAN load, start with a dummy round that’s loaded too long. Drop it in, and it won’t even fully chamber. That’s easy.

 

Now let’s say you load load one .020” shorter, and it drops in. When you try to spin the case in the barrel, it’s sticking. A lot. Your bullet is caught in the rifling.

 

Shorten up dummy #3  maybe .010” and this time it spins freely: now you know exactly how long you can load your ammo in THAT gun using THAT brand and weight of bullet.

 

(Sure, you can also just arbitrarily load your ammo super short, like your stuff that’s at 1.090” if you prefer to do it that way.)

 

I like knowing more information: My Q5 Match has a super short chamber and a hardened barrel you cannot ream. I know my 125 TC profile ammo hits the rifling at 1.124” precisely... so I load at 1.115” and never, ever have to worry about feeding issues. I also know my pressures are just a pinch lower than if I had decided to randomly load my ammo at 1.085” or something.

 

And remember, each time you change bullet weights or brands, or pick up a different Stock 2, you do need to perform that test all over again.

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[johnbu]

10 hours ago, Avenida said:

Perhaps there is something else I could add the the plunk test? I am just putting a round in, flipping barrel upside down, and it comes out on its own.

 

 

Plunk "thump" spin and dump

 

plunk it in

thump it hard with your finger

spin it while pushing down hard

Turn it over and dump it out.

 

I've never had to slay this dragon,  so only have some random thoughts. (Sorry)

 

In any battle with a random failure, slow methodical,  detailed observation and investigation is key.  first, KEEP every fail brass. Inspect it, note the head stamp, etc. Determine if it's  caused by the brass being worn or even poorly machined.

Note which magazine it was feed from and how many are left in the mag.

Next try factory ammo if you are reloading. Or switch bullet shape (round nose is normally most robust. Many many many gun problems come to the range in boxes of 50 or 100!

 

Clean the gun and mags. I mean drill sargent white glove clean. Inspect the followers and springs. Buff the followers. Lube the gun with clp or other light lube.

 

While apart polish the rails with blue magic (hand cycle 100x pushing down. Pulling up, pushing left & right. 400 hand cycles total). Barbeque guns are tight, competition guns are smooth and loose to be 100% reliable.  slide "slop"  has minimal to no effect on accuracy.

 

Swap to a 2# lighter recoil spring (unless you are already running a cut 6#!). Be darn sure you are not using a long slide spring! They can coil bind and cause issues.

 

Polish the extractor, pin and breech face. NEVER spray or drip oil into the extractor slot! EVER. you will form sludge in the firing pin channel.

 

Ensure the firing pin is moving smoothly.

 

Test the case grip strength. I posted a link above.

 

Inspect the chamber. As a last resort a light buff may help. But a heavy hand can fubar it. If it won't eat all ammo, send it to Joe at PD.

 

[Avenida]

Thanks for all the responses on this matter.

After reading your comments, yes I have done the plunk test correctly. 1090 is short to my taste but that is the max this gun allows for this bullet shape (147 Campro).

Coincidentally, as per the manufacturers loading data (Campro), this bullet should be loaded/recommended to be loaded at 1090 col, so we are good there.

 

Please also note that I was using 124 before, loaded to longer OAL, which passed the test as well. 

 

Same extraction issues with both.

 

At this point, and after 2 days of continuous inspections :

- Pieces of brass I had kept / all brass did not show any evidence of brass related problems. I did not keep all of them, just some, but they all looked the same. I also load with a Dillon and my ammo is case gauged before matches. I had two malfunctions at a match 2 days ago. Very annoying.

- Extractor tension passes the test mentioned above, it has good retention. This is not an extractor issue IMHO.

-Gun has been obsessively cleaned every time before every use just so I could dial in the issue. Full disassembly andd has been polished 3 times. Gun is smooth.

 

My gun is a long slide AUS, therefore I use the correct long spring. My thinking is that if there is enough power to blow the slide back then the recoil spring is not at fault here. The slide is traveling all the way and trying to feed another round and in this case due the brass in the chamber jams the gun, which leads me to think this is not an overpowered spring short cycling the slide. PF of my ammo is well within the expected limits to make it run reliably.

 

So I have contacted the local rep here in Canada, we have a good relationship and I want to get through this as I really like this gun, I can shoot it better than a Shadow 2.

Sending to Joe at PD would have been great but I am in Canada and the logistics involved in shipping a barrel accross the border are just ridiculously expensive not to mention all the red tape I will have to sort out before then.  It is not a viable option, so no luck there unfortunately.

 

I will wait on the recommendations from the manufacturer as to how to proceed but it certainly seems by the issues I have that the chamber might be just a hair out of spec, because the gun works fine 98% of the time otherwise...

 

Nonetheless, it is very frustrating and unpredictable.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Avenida