Should USPSA Eliminate A Division?

[RJH]

Excellent question revoman. I am sure all the division choppers will not answer it.

[motosapiens]

My question is to all who have voted to eliminate a division is. Do you or have you ever shot that division and if you haven't why does it bother you that the division is offered so others can shoot what they have or like?

I have shot L10, even won a section match in it (like that means anything, lol). I shot it purely because I didn't have any other guns that would fit limited or open, and I got a slot to nationals, so I got a few 10 round mags and spent half the year hiding. I actually like shooting L10 with my 1911 better than ss because of the extra 2 rounds, but for sure there is more competition in my part of the country in SS. My main interest in eliminating a division would be to increase the participation/competition in a 1911-ish division.

I think it's important for historical reasons and for my personal preferences to maintain a division where 1911's can be competitive, since they are ubiquitous and fun to shoot. I don't see any reason why a 1911 has an advantage over a unicorn gun, or even a crappy plastic gun. I would love to find a way to combine a few divisions, but I also worry about unintended consequences. It *seems* plausible to have a production minor division that would include minor 1911's and a production major division that would include major 1911's with 10rd mags and all the various police issue guns (along with the gamer 2011 gear). But maybe everyone would gravitate towards only 1 gun and at nationals 1 gun would dominate, sorta like production after ben started shooting tanfo. Wait, what?

Perhaps the answer is to:

a) raise the participation requirements to recognize a division at a major match.

b. put on more division-specific major matches, like battle in the bluegrass.

Our club put on a hicap-lowcap match last spring that was one of the funnest matches I've ever shot. 8 stages, only low-cap divisions (prod, l10, ss) on saturday, and only limited/open on sunday. Same stages, and got a lot of really good shooters to drag out their 1911 or glock or cz to do some reloads. We gotta do that again this year.

Edited September 25, 2015 by motosapiens

[Southpaw]

Eliminate a division??? I think we need to add more! Open 10 FTW!!!

[RJH]

Moto, I have to disagree on the participation requirments. I think the "you have to have X number of participates in a division to award even a first place is what causes division numbers to drop. People will end up not shooting a division because they are married it will not fill up. Award the same first prize to all divisions, allow a little division shopping, and I think l10, SS, and maybe even Revo numbers will go up. It sucks when you shoot an area match that says frist in each division will get a gun and then says that there wasn't enough shooters and after the fact you find out you shot a 150 dollar match for fun. If you take the money form 2 revo guys and advertise a gun for the winner, then one of those 2 should get a gun.

[d_striker]

Moto, I have to disagree on the participation requirments. I think the "you have to have X number of participates in a division to award even a first place is what causes division numbers to drop. People will end up not shooting a division because they are married it will not fill up. Award the same first prize to all divisions, allow a little division shopping, and I think l10, SS, and maybe even Revo numbers will go up. It sucks when you shoot an area match that says frist in each division will get a gun and then says that there wasn't enough shooters and after the fact you find out you shot a 150 dollar match for fun. If you take the money form 2 revo guys and advertise a gun for the winner, then one of those 2 should get a gun.

Sort of a chicken or egg argument.

Your rationale makes it sound like the only reason people would shoot in those hider divisions at a big match is because they think they have a better shot at winning a gun.

[Nik Habicht]

Can someone tell me how a category works in the sense of awards?

Assuming you have a match with a prize table, does the Limited shooter get a prize and the L-10 shooter get a plaque and a hand shake?

I really don't understand how this works.

I have no idea how it would work -- but if the concept is category within the division, then I would assume that the prize table would be visited in order of finish in the division -- or some variation on that.....

If it were to be similar to what we've seen before at Nats the order of finish might look like Division winner, High Master.....High D, High Category (Senior, Junior, Lady, L10) winners......order of finish within the division......

Or one could do straight order within the division -- so if the highest scoring L10 category shooter was in tenth place, he'd be the tenth person to walk the prize table......

The only question would be whether

[Nik Habicht]

For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together.

3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match.

It addresses states like NY and Colorado but NOT Massachusetts.

How or Why would this rule not function properly to ensure that all competitors adhere to the Massachusetts 10 round capacity limit law? Every division should be restricted to 10 round magazines in that state.

Because MA allows grand-fathered pre-ban magazines, they are not completely banned. If you can find and are willing to pay you can get pre-ban glock mags and shoot limited. If you shoot an M&P you are SOL (they don't exist). Either compete at a severe disadvantage, choose to tempt becoming a felon, or don't play.

Theres a division for Glocks and M&P's with 10 round mags. It's called Production.

Really? That's where all Glocks and M&Ps are most competitive? Even say the .357 Sig, 10 mm, .40 & .45 caliber models, whose owners are buying factory ammo?

Next you'll tell me there's a good division for Beretta .40s, Browning High Powers in either 9 or 40, or Sig 220s -- just some of the guns I needed to find a competitive home for when running a match....

[Nik Habicht]

My question is to all who have voted to eliminate a division is. Do you or have you ever shot that division and if you haven't why does it bother you that the division is offered so others can shoot what they have or like?

I have shot L10, even won a section match in it (like that means anything, lol). I shot it purely because I didn't have any other guns that would fit limited or open, and I got a slot to nationals, so I got a few 10 round mags and spent half the year hiding. I actually like shooting L10 with my 1911 better than ss because of the extra 2 rounds, but for sure there is more competition in my part of the country in SS. My main interest in eliminating a division would be to increase the participation/competition in a 1911-ish division.

I think it's important for historical reasons and for my personal preferences to maintain a division where 1911's can be competitive, since they are ubiquitous and fun to shoot. I don't see any reason why a 1911 has an advantage over a unicorn gun, or even a crappy plastic gun. I would love to find a way to combine a few divisions, but I also worry about unintended consequences. It *seems* plausible to have a production minor division that would include minor 1911's and a production major division that would include major 1911's with 10rd mags and all the various police issue guns (along with the gamer 2011 gear). But maybe everyone would gravitate towards only 1 gun and at nationals 1 gun would dominate, sorta like production after ben started shooting tanfo. Wait, what?

Perhaps the answer is to:

a) raise the participation requirements to recognize a division at a major match.

b. put on more division-specific major matches, like battle in the bluegrass.

Our club put on a hicap-lowcap match last spring that was one of the funnest matches I've ever shot. 8 stages, only low-cap divisions (prod, l10, ss) on saturday, and only limited/open on sunday. Same stages, and got a lot of really good shooters to drag out their 1911 or glock or cz to do some reloads. We gotta do that again this year.

OK -- so you're voting to eliminate because in your part of the country there's more competition in SS? Does that mean that we can vote in our part of the country to eliminate SS -- because it's less popular than L10?

I'd suggest there's already an easy fix -- stop offering it and advertise that fact to your shooters....

[Nik Habicht]

Moto, I have to disagree on the participation requirments. I think the "you have to have X number of participates in a division to award even a first place is what causes division numbers to drop. People will end up not shooting a division because they are married it will not fill up. Award the same first prize to all divisions, allow a little division shopping, and I think l10, SS, and maybe even Revo numbers will go up. It sucks when you shoot an area match that says frist in each division will get a gun and then says that there wasn't enough shooters and after the fact you find out you shot a 150 dollar match for fun. If you take the money form 2 revo guys and advertise a gun for the winner, then one of those 2 should get a gun.

While i agree with you in principal -- if you advertise it, then one of the two should get a gun -- that's not currently allowed under the sport's rules......

[RJH]

Nik, you are correct on that rule, I had forgotten.

Dstriker, that is part of my reasoning, but not all of it.

[Hi-Power Jack]

We only need three divisions:

1. lots of bullets (Ltd) but std sights

2. lots of bullets with scope/comp (Open)

3. few bullets (L10, Rev, Prod, and everything else you can think of).

Real simple.

[motosapiens]

Moto, I have to disagree on the participation requirments. I think the "you have to have X number of participates in a division to award even a first place is what causes division numbers to drop. People will end up not shooting a division because they are married it will not fill up. Award the same first prize to all divisions, allow a little division shopping, and I think l10, SS, and maybe even Revo numbers will go up. It sucks when you shoot an area match that says frist in each division will get a gun and then says that there wasn't enough shooters and after the fact you find out you shot a 150 dollar match for fun. If you take the money form 2 revo guys and advertise a gun for the winner, then one of those 2 should get a gun.

Sort of a chicken or egg argument.

Your rationale makes it sound like the only reason people would shoot in those hider divisions at a big match is because they think they have a better shot at winning a gun.

+1. Part of my motivation to increase participation requirements would be to discourage exactly this sort of sandbagging and hiding.

Personally, I shoot every match for fun. When the time comes that I go to a match and choose my division based on the best chance of winning a gun, I hope my wife pulls the plug on my life-support.

I tend to look for the most competition I can find.

[motosapiens]

OK -- so you're voting to eliminate because in your part of the country there's more competition in SS? Does that mean that we can vote in our part of the country to eliminate SS -- because it's less popular than L10?

Sure. I'd be happy to eliminate SS and keep L10 too.

I think you just like to argue, lol.

Edited September 25, 2015 by motosapiens

[mike l m]

I am a SS shooter and have been since about 1986 in USPSA. I have seen the changes from SS to Open,etc.

I am only saying that with the way matches are scored, I would like to see how I fair against every shooter there, may it be Open,Limited,Production,SS, etc.

There is no need to even think about eliminating a Division. Just shoot what is legal and go for it.

Thanks,

Mike

[Bill H]

Why don't we get rid of all the divisions and you can all complain how you have nothing to do on Saturdays. Leave it alone. I have shot in every division and like each one for different reasons. I used to shoot open mostly but now shoot single stack in 9mm because I now have 3 boys shooting 10 round guns and we can plan the stages together. We need more new shooters. Stop alienating the shooters we do have.

[Gary Stevens]

Combined results makes it easy to compare with all others.

[Nik Habicht]

OK -- so you're voting to eliminate because in your part of the country there's more competition in SS? Does that mean that we can vote in our part of the country to eliminate SS -- because it's less popular than L10?

Sure. I'd be happy to eliminate SS and keep L10 too.

I think you just like to argue, lol.

Well -- yeah. (It's how I learn.....)

My point was simply that different divisions are popular in different parts of the country -- and that eliminating one because it isn't popular in Area X or Section Y, doesn't mean it won't have people upset in other Areas or sections.....

[d_striker]

Theres a division for Glocks and M&P's with 10 round mags. It's called Production.

Really? That's where all Glocks and M&Ps are most competitive? Even say the .357 Sig, 10 mm, .40 & .45 caliber models, whose owners are buying factory ammo?

Next you'll tell me there's a good division for Beretta .40s, Browning High Powers in either 9 or 40, or Sig 220s -- just some of the guns I needed to find a competitive home for when running a match....

Are you telling me that we need a division for every possible gun out there to be competitive in? When are we going to get a Carry Optics division for metal guns that weigh more than 35oz? While we're at it, maybe we should create a BUG division as well.

Whenever a 10 vs 15 round Production thread pops up, there are countless people crying that Production shouldn't be 15 rounds because their .357 Sig, 10mm, .40 & .45 caliber models don't hold 15 rounds. Now I'm hearing that L10 is the perfect fit for these guns.

Edited September 26, 2015 by d_striker

[Nik Habicht]

It is if they're not reloading......

One of the fun tidbits about growing a local match from being on the brink of extinction to having a solid 50-55 competitors show up every month, is that you do need to accommodate most guns people show up with.....

BUGs -- if they can hold ten can play competitively in Production or L10, depending on action type. I know of at least one competitor who shot several years of IDPA and then made the transition to USPSA with a Glock 26 or 27; I know another dad who turned his G19 over to his daughter when she started shooting with him, and he competed with a G26 in Production....

Shooting full house loads out of a less than 20 round capacity gun does not make one competitive in limited......

Then again -- we could just drop capacity limits to 10 across the board, do away with Limited, and and have Open ten in the process......

[Forrest Halley]

Eli, you're assuming that people will move from the division that you kill to the one that survives. What if they don't? Too bad so sad?

I think shooters are well capable of deciding what to shoot, no need to force them someplace else because you or anyone else thinks their division is too small.

Look at the people who vaporized when six shot revolver went away. Not a lot of people by your standards from the outside looking in, but the local matches were impacted. Alterations to the division lists need to be considered not for the impact at the national level, but for the impact at the local levels.

Revolver is a fun division for me. I do enjoy hitting most of the things I aim at and having plenty of rounds in a vertical line at times, but I enjoy the challenge and the deliberate approach to revolver stages.

Let's add teeth to the rule stability here. For example, I'm going to bite the next person to fool with my favorite division. See, proof positive that revolver shooters are crazy...?

Edited September 26, 2015 by Forrest Halley

[wtturn]

I voted to eliminate L-10, Carry Optics and Revolver. Production was invented for 10 round sticks, Carry Optics guys should just spend the money and go Open, and Revolver guys have their own game, ICORE.

Personally there should only be 2 divisions:

Unlimited, Rules, must only be a pistol caliber. No restrictions on gun or gear, anything goes.

As Designed, Rules, 100% OEM factory parts, no modifications except sights and grips. Gear, single belt only, bucket holster and mag pouches must loop thru belt.

Major at 175PF and Minor at 150PF.

lol

[mont1120]

I'm sure this issue has been beaten to death so many times it really is getting old, but.......

I just read in Frontsite the issue to eliminate L10 is on the radar at least at the rules level, so once again, a final comment. As an L10 shooter, the reasons I shoot it are:

Us old diner sores need the two extra rounds to make up for our SS misses, Eyes don't work well any more.

I can keep the mags on the front and close side of the belt which provides better access.

The holster can be just about any retention device.

Major and minor power factors still apply, unlike in Production. Those who shoot major should get benefit for doing so.

I never go to a match expecting to win much more then a decal and a spare mag. If not enough people sign up for a match, eliminate the high level prize. No one wants sandbaggers to benefit at that level.

It would seem USPSA might just be a bit premature in eliminating this division. Should the next presidential election go a certain way, limiting pistols to 10 rounds only may become the norm not only in many states, but across the board. Then L10 becomes very relevant. The way the political landscape is changing, demographics tend to make me think we are headed for 8 more years of a hostile presidency.

So, my real question is why the effort to delete a division? As in all areas of life, it is common for conditions to swing one way, then swing back the other because of the nature of humans. What was old is now new and so forth. This clearly seen in Cowboy Action Shooting which certainly mystifies me. I would not compete in it, but it has seen a surge in popularity, and will also ebb and flow.

I suspect L10 will follow the same path if left alone. It will again in time become a relevant division left to its own devices. Who would have though Carry Optics would be a division 5 years ago?

[R34PER]

Get rid of production. That is the real hider division. They won't shoot against guns designed over 100 years ago.

[Warkitz]

Shot sunshine state games in fl this weekend and we only had 1 shooter in L10 and he could not receive any medals because there must be at least 2 in a division to receive a medal.

[motosapiens]

Shot sunshine state games in fl this weekend and we only had 1 shooter in L10 and he could not receive any medals because there must be at least 2 in a division to receive a medal.

shouldn't he at least get a medal for 'winning' his class? lol. his mommy would be proud.