Bad day at range. Blew up my 929

[Intel6]

3.2 N320 behind a Bayou 160 at 1.18" is my standard load. In testing I took it all the way up to 3.8 grains without any issues and the cases came out with no stickiness 148 PF.

Neal in AZ

[RevoWood123]

Glad to hear you're ok. I have never had a squib make it past the front of the cylinder, mine have always locked the cylinder up. I wouldn't think it'd be an issue with a squib load. But if it is, I have been lucky that they never made it past where the cylinder would still be able to turn. Hope you get it all figured out, and like I said, I am glad you're ok, had a friend who detonated a primer tube in his hand before and it wasn't pretty, he's lucky he's still got all his digits and can still shoot.

[AzShooter]

Thanks for the help and all the kind words. Smith & Wesson is sending me a label to ship the gun back.

[mojo1]

maybe a light load.

Edited September 7, 2015 by mojo1

[seanc]

I know a guy who blew up a 627 cylinder. Just the cylinder, not the top strap. He was running a TG load in Short Colt that would have been hot under a 115 9mm under a 158 GR Berrys. Calculated the pressure on that one at 60K+ PSI - I'm assuming you made similar pressure somehow.

I had mentioned in here recently, I shot an upside down bullet out of mine recently, 2.8 of tg with a 160 upside down, I haven't tried to figure out if its compressed or not but I would be very surprised if it was not.

It was a mighty bang, recoil like a real 357 mag defense load, but no damage.

This is just rushing, mr bullet drops some upside downers once in a while, I don't always notice/cull them out. Reach into bucket of ammo and clip them by hand(on the loose clips and never looked.

[seanc]

Maybe that cylinder didn't get heat treated?

This seems most logical to me, faulty part.

[peterthefish]

Maybe that cylinder didn't get heat treated?

This seems most logical to me, faulty part.

Really? Seems like a reach to me. The odds of a hobby reloader goofing up vs a major manufacturer with literally millions at risk if a defective part goes out the door.

It's not a job shop where some guy on the assembly line just walks over and grabs a cylinder to get started on the next gun.

[seanc]

The load as stated with that pic just doesn't make sense..... I run 3.4gr of N320 in my 929 with 147gr RN Blue bullet @1.14 with no issues at all.. Possible the cylinder was in it of time??? I'm confused.....

If it's in time enough to hit the primer its in time enough for the bullet to align the cylinder as it jumps to the FC. Squib or Double charge.

Sort of. 2 years ago, practicing standards. easy, WHO at 3 yards. 3rd shot into drill, huge boom, hot lead and all kinds of blow back up hand/arm into face, but almost no recoil. Target has weird shotgun pattern, couple biggish holds, and scattering of small holes.

Skipped chamber, extreme edge hit in primer and it went off. so I know from personal experience "in time enough to go off" doesn't mean the whole bullet will go down the barrel. Some of it will, the rest will smash into barrel and spray out all over in tiny bits.

3.2 of clays with a 160 bayou in that cast. I happened to have a S&W guy on the phone right after it happened discussing finer points of revs going off out of time. This is when I got the "i recommend replace cyl stop every few thousand rounds, etc..."

I asked him if they sold them buy the dozen or not....

Edited September 8, 2015 by seanc

[seanc]

Maybe that cylinder didn't get heat treated?

This seems most logical to me, faulty part.

Really? Seems like a reach to me. The odds of a hobby reloader goofing up vs a major manufacturer with literally millions at risk if a defective part goes out the door.

It's not a job shop where some guy on the assembly line just walks over and grabs a cylinder to get started on the next gun.

Yeah, because quality control has been so great on these guns?

I don't disagree, maybe "most logical" vs just logical is to strong.

[peterthefish]

Maybe that cylinder didn't get heat treated?

This seems most logical to me, faulty part.

Really? Seems like a reach to me. The odds of a hobby reloader goofing up vs a major manufacturer with literally millions at risk if a defective part goes out the door.

It's not a job shop where some guy on the assembly line just walks over and grabs a cylinder to get started on the next gun.

Yeah, because quality control has been so great on these guns?

I don't disagree, maybe "most logical" vs just logical is to strong.

There's a difference between fit and finish QC and making a gun QC.

A competitive shooter has to get it right 10-30K reloading - the manufacturer only has to get it right once, and had much better controls in place than most reloaders.

It's not even logical vs most logical - it's probable vs possible.

[seanc]

Maybe that cylinder didn't get heat treated?

This seems most logical to me, faulty part.

Really? Seems like a reach to me. The odds of a hobby reloader goofing up vs a major manufacturer with literally millions at risk if a defective part goes out the door.

It's not a job shop where some guy on the assembly line just walks over and grabs a cylinder to get started on the next gun.

Yeah, because quality control has been so great on these guns?

I don't disagree, maybe "most logical" vs just logical is to strong.

There's a difference between fit and finish QC and making a gun QC.

A competitive shooter has to get it right 10-30K reloading - the manufacturer only has to get it right once, and had much better controls in place than most reloaders.

It's not even logical vs most logical - it's probable vs possible.

you win this round peterthefish.

next time...

hah

edit..are you in A7 btw? where do you shoot?

Edited September 8, 2015 by seanc

[dirtysanchez]

It has happened before Pete.

[Shadowrider]

Maybe that cylinder didn't get heat treated?

This seems most logical to me, faulty part.

Really? Seems like a reach to me. The odds of a hobby reloader goofing up vs a major manufacturer with literally millions at risk if a defective part goes out the door.

It's not a job shop where some guy on the assembly line just walks over and grabs a cylinder to get started on the next gun.

Yeah, because quality control has been so great on these guns?

I don't disagree, maybe "most logical" vs just logical is to strong.

There's a difference between fit and finish QC and making a gun QC.

A competitive shooter has to get it right 10-30K reloading - the manufacturer only has to get it right once, and had much better controls in place than most reloaders.

It's not even logical vs most logical - it's probable vs possible.

I hear what you're saying but having come from many years of manufacturing I've seen it happen many times. No QA system is perfect and things do fall through the cracks. I've seen heat treat vendors just skip the process altogether (mistakenly) as well as lots of material just not coming up to spec even though the chemical analysis of the heat lot from the mill checked out and furnace log charts checked out too.

Does S&W hardness test all cylinders like they used to? I have my doubts and would be really curious to see if they still do. They probably use statistical process control and spot check each lot. One of many ways to save $$ on the bottom line. In aerospace there are several different criticality designations, "fracture critical", "fatigue critical", etc. If I were a S&W engineer I would certainly deem a revolver cylinder to meet this and mandate a hardness test as a key characteristic in the inspection plan. That means 100% hardness inspection with documentation. Even with all of this it's possible to miss one every once in awhile. You know what they say, anytime humans are involved...

[Jim Watson]

As Ed Matunas once wrote, "It's not always the reload, but that's the smart way to bet."

All the stuck bullet "squibs" I have seen blown out with a full charge bulged or split the BARREL, the cylinder (or the chamber of an auto) was not damaged.

I have to go with a double or other gross overload.

[Carmoney]

This is the point in the conversation where I ask what kind of reloading machine was used to make the ammo. The answer is almost invariably the same--a Dillon 550, which of course is not auto-indexing.

While it is certainly possible to double-charge a case with any progressive press, the machines that auto-index make it far less likely.

[bountyhunter]

The load as stated with that pic just doesn't make sense..... I run 3.4gr of N320 in my 929 with 147gr RN Blue bullet @1.14 with no issues at all.. Possible the cylinder was in it of time??? I'm confused.....

If it's in time enough to hit the primer its in time enough for the bullet to align the cylinder as it jumps to the FC. Squib or Double charge.

3.2 of clays with a 160 bayou in that cast. I happened to have a S&W guy on the phone right after it happened discussing finer points of revs going off out of time. This is when I got the "i recommend replace cyl stop every few thousand rounds, etc..."

I asked him if they sold them buy the dozen or not....

Interesting. In my experience, the cylinder notches on SS guns peen and distort a lot faster than the stop does.

[hearthco]

This is the point in the conversation where I ask what kind of reloading machine was used to make the ammo. The answer is almost invariably the same--a Dillon 550, which of course is not auto-indexing.

While it is certainly possible to double-charge a case with any progressive press, the machines that auto-index make it far less likely.

Mike nailed it! More squibs and dbl charges with 550

[No.343]

It happens to people from the best of families. Glad you are ok.

[CoThG]

Maybe that cylinder didn't get heat treated?

Wouldn't surprise me at all seeing what's been coming from the "Performance Center" lately.

[Absocold]

Looks like a light charge kaboom. VV320 is a very fast powder. Fast powders that are undercharged can detonate instead of burning. A lodged bullet or double charge would likely show barrel and/or strap damage in a revolver. The way that thing's blown out for the full length of the chamber it doesn't look like a pressure spike occurring after the bullet starts moving like you would see from too much powder being burned or a spike during the burn from a lodged bullet trapping the expanding gases, but rather a high order explosion at the instant of ignition.

Did your powder reservoir run low at any point that could have caused this? That's my first guess.

Check your powder drop/funnel/die for powder sticking to it. My second guess is that the powder rubbing against everything as it falls built up a static charge on the press and started sticking to the inside of the drop instead of flowing into the case. You slowly get lighter and lighter loads as the stuck powder catches more and more then the stuck powder finally has enough weight to overcome the static cling and you get an overcharge. All the bullets from that batch get mixed up and then it's a crapshoot as to which problem your gun sees first. Squib? Kabang? Kaboom? Luck of the draw. The fix for this is to run a dryer sheet through your powder drop every time you refill the reservoir. Making sure your press is properly grounded is always a god idea too.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Absocold

[blind bat]

Am I the only one who considers the undercharge detonation thing an old wives tale? Hopefully someone who knows how to work a slide rule will chime in with science.

[AzShooter]

Thanks. I was thinking of an undercharged detonation. I had that happen once before. Had about the same outcome. That was almost 30 years ago.

[Absocold]

Am I the only one who considers the undercharge detonation thing an old wives tale? Hopefully someone who knows how to work a slide rule will chime in with science.

It's already a well-known phenomenon with rifles, especially with slow powders. A Finnish gunwriter reproduced it, 3.1gr of VV320 in a 308 caused the gun to violently disassemble itself. But most doubt it can happen in pistols with fast powder.

Ask Winchester why they suddenly stopped making their legendary 220 Swift rifles and created a different caliber to replace it. Start and stop pressure waves, which many claimed was a myth, was eventually proven to be blowing up their guns as throat wear accelerated. They stopped making the ammo too. Sure, once in a blue moon they'll release a few special event guns but those come out of the custom shop. They're no longer in production.

Many people thought that the notion of a secondary pressure spike near a rifle's muzzle was nonsense too... until one man figured out how to reproduce it and blow the end off of rifle barrels. https://www.shootingsoftware.com/barrel.htm

I could go on but you get where I'm going. Just because something hasn't been reproduced in a laboratory yet doesn't mean it's not happening. There's way too much anecdotal evidence going on to simply dismiss it.

[JohnRodriguez]

you know this is a revo forum and not a rifle forum, right??? and we are talking about a 9mm case. I've used 147gr zeros and 2.5 gr of vv310 in my 9mm with no problems. my bianchi load for 38 special is a 148gr WC with 2.1 gr of vv310. no problems, about 128 pf.

Edited September 20, 2015 by JohnRodriguez

[Absocold]

I was making two points.

First, if it happens in rifles then a reasonable person might suspect it's possible in pistols too.

Second, some supposed "gun myths" that were at first unable to be reproduced eventually were.

Does this make me right? Nope. But it's a discussion worth having instead of dismissing all the people who claim it's happened to them, simply because no one's done it in a lab yet or because it hasn't happened to you.