sudoshakes Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I was at the Area 8 shoot on Friday and got a rather rude awakening in what was our second to last stage of the day. The Chrono / equipment check stage which should not be a surprise stage, shocked me. "Your gun doesn't fit in the box". Now, this is a bit of a problem because I shoot production and have not modified the magazine provided nor the exterior of the gun AT ALL. I purchased my CZ SP-01 from CZ custom, with their assurance it was production legal. Magazine was stock. Sights all stock as they came on the gun. Hell, I did not even move the sights since I bought it as it came spot on. The dimension which would not fit was gun height with magazine inserted measured from top of the sight to the bottom of the mag well. My friend's shadow fit fine with the same mag, I tried it after they told me, just to see if it was a magazine issue. So the same mag, two different shadows, mine fails, his passes. I called CZ custom literally as I heard, asking for a callback. They called me back today, leaving me a message. Their response, "the box is wrong". Now I drove over 10 hours for this match, and returned home after shooting Friday afternoon. I am not sure what to do here. I cannot really ask for a box clarification since the gun and box are 5 hours apart. Anyone have any ideas? Other than, check your gun before assuming it fits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) I would measure the gun and send this information along with your post above to DNROI and ask them to investigate, if you can ask the owner of the other gun to give you the measurements of his then that might help too. From what you are saying I cannot understand how one gun would fit and not the other unless there was a problem with the box Edited August 30, 2015 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudoshakes Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 They called the match director over to the table, and he basically shrugged and said tough nuggies. The friend is a close training partner so I can get measurements. His rear sight is different than mine, but I think that is because his is a CZ shadow custom and mine is the 2014 custom model. I am not sure why the rear sight would be different between the builds, but mine has finer serrations and seems to sit slightly higher. Again, CZ custom assures me this is a production legal gun. It is worth noting several people got bumped to Open that day, for failing the box test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 You can carry a tape measure and verify the box. I keep one in my range bag. Sent from 867-5309 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I have a CZ 75 SP01 Shadow by CZ Custom. It has adjustable sights. I use MecGar 17-rd mags with Springer base pads; they're the same height as the stock CZ 18-round mags that come with the CZ Custom gun. At Area 8 it dropped right into the box and had room to wiggle around, no "press fit" or whatever. Other CZs in my squad passed the box in the same manner. Not sure what happened to OP. Could he have mistakenly been using mags with extended base pads (which CZ-C sells and are handy for Limited, but won't pass Production?) BTW, did the MD actually *say* "tough nuggies"? Agree with having measuring tools, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudoshakes Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 I have a CZ 75 SP01 Shadow by CZ Custom. It has adjustable sights. I use MecGar 17-rd mags with Springer base pads; they're the same height as the stock CZ 18-round mags that come with the CZ Custom gun. At Area 8 it dropped right into the box and had room to wiggle around, no "press fit" or whatever. Other CZs in my squad passed the box in the same manner. Not sure what happened to OP. Could he have mistakenly been using mags with extended base pads (which CZ-C sells and are handy for Limited, but won't pass Production?) BTW, did the MD actually *say* "tough nuggies"? Agree with having measuring tools, just in case. My gun does not have adjustable sights. The sights have no been touched since leaving the factory. I shoot with a friend who had a shadow as well. He had no problems with any of the mags we tested. Both the Mecgar and the CZ stock mags that came with the gun failed to pass. This is not a case of mistaken mags. The are mag I received WTIH THE GUN di not work. A Mecgar mag that worked without a problem in his gun, the same one you talk about, failed in my gun to fit in the box. All of this leads me to beleive the rear sight, which for some reason is different than his, is too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 have you measured them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) You could try the shorter mec-gar 17 round mags without the thicker aftermarket base pads. Or try them with the Shockbottle base pads which I think might be thinner top to bottom than the Springer ones? Eric Edited August 31, 2015 by eric4069 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Anyone have any ideas? Other than, check your gun before assuming it fits?Nope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I usually measure my gun (with mag) with a caliper for height, just in case. If it's reaaal close I'll take mags with me that have thinner base pads (e.g., the stock CZ 16 rd mags). Also, it's helpful to take the gun to the chrono station during your walkthrough (between squads, of course) and ask if you can check it in the box. If there's something wrong, at least there's some time to fix it, or borrow mags, etc. Sorry for your situation. Hope you enjoyed the match anyway; it had some fun challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 As a point of clarification, the MD did not respond as it is not his job. I responded as RM and observed the process. The gun with magazine did not fit. The box was an EGW manufactured box which is the authorized manufacturer for USPSA. EGW makes quality products and has done so for decades. It is interesting that CZ knows the box was wrong when they were not present. As far as the "tough nuggies" comment it was not made. I always try to treat the shooter with respect regardless. I would not want someone to make a snide comment to me in such a situation and I don't do it to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Who choses what mag goes in the gun to be measured, shooter or chrono staff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 All mags must fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Who choses what mag goes in the gun to be measured, shooter or chrono staff? Technically ALL mags are subject to testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 As a point of clarification, the MD did not respond as it is not his job. I responded as RM and observed the process. The gun with magazine did not fit. The box was an EGW manufactured box which is the authorized manufacturer for USPSA. EGW makes quality products and has done so for decades. It is interesting that CZ knows the box was wrong when they were not present. As far as the "tough nuggies" comment it was not made. I always try to treat the shooter with respect regardless. I would not want someone to make a snide comment to me in such a situation and I don't do it to others. And I for one, knowing Gary, believe this to indeed be the case. It is beyond me how a shooter can travel to a major match, invest all the time and money to do so, and not KNOW FOR A FACT, his gear is legal. That is just a little nuts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Hell I weight my PROD, SS guns on two different scales before I plan on taking them. And don't even get me started on chronoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I also know Gary. He's knowledgeable and fair, and he seems to want everyone to have a good time and get the same breaks, within the rule book. It wouldn't be like him to toss off a complaint or question and just walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Hell I weight my PROD, SS guns on two different scales before I plan on taking them. And don't even get me started on chronoing. Please, start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 And to add a bit more. If I remember correctly, and I may not, the magazine presented with the gun did not fit. I picked up one of the magazines and it was a Mec-Gar mag with an aluminum base pad. I am not in tune with CZ guns to know if it comes with Mec-Gar mags or not. I do remember seeing one CZ gun with the tall rear sight. I don't remember if it was this gun or a Limited gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 All mags must fit. Do we test all mags? What if I bring 100 mags in bag? What if some are for other guns, say I'm shooting production and limited in back to back matches with the same gun but different mags and I have them in my range bag. I'm not just being a dick with these questions, I'm trying to understand the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 All I can tell you is all mags are subject to be tested. And not to be a dick either, but if you show up at chrono with a hundred magazines don't be surprised if I make your squad wait while I test every one of them:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) All I can tell you is all mags are subject to be tested. And not to be a dick either, but if you show up at chrono with a hundred magazines don't be surprised if I make your squad wait while I test every one of them:) I guess what I'm asking is are we actually testing all mags or just the one the shooter presents? Forget for a second the issue in question, where I don't think anyone tried to cheat anyone else. It would be trivial to carry "correct" length mags and present those and then use my cheater mags during the match, specially when the difference is in margin of error for manufacturing tolerances. I can't really fathom what advantage I would get from doing it, but I can see how someone would do it. If we actually test every mag the shooter has .. do we raid their range bag? What happens with 140mm he left in there? Heck what happens with th fat glock mag the doesn't really fit in his CZ, does that count? I think the rules are slightly broken here. I don't know how to fix them, I just hope smarter people the me think about it for a bit, because specially in production with the 10 rd limit why the heck do we care how long the mags are and what effect they have on the overall size of the gun. Once a gun is on the production list, I don't see how changing sight height or mag pads makes any difference worth measuring. Edited August 31, 2015 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 It makes a difference because we have a box that is a control device. There is a relationship between the height of the rear sight and the length of the base pad. Taller rear sight means shorter base pad. Shorter rear sight means more room for a longer base pad. As to what mags get tested the rule says they are subject to be tested. Common situation is shooter presents a mag with the gun. If that mag is different than those on the shooters belt I might pull one of the other mags also. Present me a flat mag with no base pad while all the mags on your belt have red aluminum base pads I might get suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Fair enough, I'm not much questioning the enforcement of the rule, I'm questioning the rule itself, particularly for production where once the gun is approved the stacking tolerances of rear sights and mag pads shouldn't come into play, at least not in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Those hight only adjustable sights are pretty tall. I think it's likely that the rear sight adjusted to the lowest position would just fit the box whereas if set higher might not unless you compress the rear sight before setting it in the box. The Shadows Targets that milled a dovetail for an LPA sight didn't have this problem. Edited August 31, 2015 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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