Carry Optics Survey

[rumblestrip]

I don't want to build get another platform to keep up with. I am classified in all divisions, but have only shot limited and single stack for a while. I figure if you are going to use a dot then go open. The divisions were created then the shooter who wanted it started to cry the didn't like the rules. They seemed to be expecting open rules with no comp. Just my take on the whole thing.

Mike

I guess we should just go back to shooting Limited and Open, since it was a bunch of cry babies that wanted Production, Single Stack and Revolver.

[Gary Stevens]

Well just for fun and giggles I ordered a CO package this morning. M&P CORE with a Trijicon RMR 06. Not a bad price either.

Soon to be off to Dan Burwell for a tune up and off to the races.

[atbarr]

Well just for fun and giggles I ordered a CO package this morning. M&P CORE with a Trijicon RMR 06. Not a bad price either.

Soon to be off to Dan Burwell for a tune up and off to the races.

[Punished]

I still find it funny that everyone whom is against CO says to go buy an open gun. You aren't even making a close comparison, you are comparing apples to fine caviar. Point me to where I can buy a complete open gun with mags and belt rig for less than $1,000 (that runs)...... and then show me factory loaded 9mm major that will run an open gun that won't break my bank.....

In most threads on BE, I've noticed/ feel that most of the contributing members are reloaders as well. Which after coughing up $2,500+ for an open gun makes an easy transition to the division. When I head to local matches, I see lots of winchester/atlanta arms/etc being used (myself included). Anytime someone asks about an open gun on this forum, the first thing some answers with is- Do you reload?

So why is there so much disgust for a division which allows all those who think open race guns are awesome but don't want to shell the investment out. I don't care if this was a push from plastic gun makers to have their own division, in the past months I've loved shooting a 9mm factory gun with slide red dot, which all my other glock items work with.

[BritinUSA]

I've been shooting competitively since 1991, shooting my CarryOptics setup for the past year is the most fun I've had shooting in this sport. In the past I have shot Open, Revolver and Production.

[Sarge]

I still find it funny that everyone whom is against CO says to go buy an open gun. You aren't even making a close comparison, you are comparing apples to fine caviar. Point me to where I can buy a complete open gun with mags and belt rig for less than $1,000 (that runs)...... and then show me factory loaded 9mm major that will run an open gun that won't break my bank.....

In most threads on BE, I've noticed/ feel that most of the contributing members are reloaders as well. Which after coughing up $2,500+ for an open gun makes an easy transition to the division. When I head to local matches, I see lots of winchester/atlanta arms/etc being used (myself included). Anytime someone asks about an open gun on this forum, the first thing some answers with is- Do you reload?

So why is there so much disgust for a division which allows all those who think open race guns are awesome but don't want to shell the investment out. I don't care if this was a push from plastic gun makers to have their own division, in the past months I've loved shooting a 9mm factory gun with slide red dot, which all my other glock items work with.

I have never told anyone to buy an open gun. I have simply said to shoot in open minor just like hundreds already do and have been doing for quite some time.

While it's true open shooters pretty much must reload their ammo it's also true that any, even semi serious shooter, should be reloading for optimum performance. Shooting a slide mounted optic on a 9mm with factory ammo will be nowhere near as nice as a soft shooting custom load.

I would be curious to hear what type of load works best for CO. Snappy or sluggish are bound to give different results.

[elguapo]

They seemed to be expecting open rules with no comp. Just my take on the whole thing.

Your take is not accurate. Not even close.

[BrianATL]

I still find it funny that everyone whom is against CO says to go buy an open gun. You aren't even making a close comparison, you are comparing apples to fine caviar. Point me to where I can buy a complete open gun with mags and belt rig for less than $1,000 (that runs)...... and then show me factory loaded 9mm major that will run an open gun that won't break my bank.....

In most threads on BE, I've noticed/ feel that most of the contributing members are reloaders as well. Which after coughing up $2,500+ for an open gun makes an easy transition to the division. When I head to local matches, I see lots of winchester/atlanta arms/etc being used (myself included). Anytime someone asks about an open gun on this forum, the first thing some answers with is- Do you reload?

So why is there so much disgust for a division which allows all those who think open race guns are awesome but don't want to shell the investment out. I don't care if this was a push from plastic gun makers to have their own division, in the past months I've loved shooting a 9mm factory gun with slide red dot, which all my other glock items work with.

I have never told anyone to buy an open gun. I have simply said to shoot in open minor just like hundreds already do and have been doing for quite some time.

While it's true open shooters pretty much must reload their ammo it's also true that any, even semi serious shooter, should be reloading for optimum performance. Shooting a slide mounted optic on a 9mm with factory ammo will be nowhere near as nice as a soft shooting custom load.

I would be curious to hear what type of load works best for CO. Snappy or sluggish are bound to give different results.

Isn't that very similar to telling the production guys to go shoot limited minor, the majority of those shooters are not going to jump at that opportunity

[pmt]

So why is there so much disgust.....

There isn't a lot of disgust anymore. Lately it's been the same one or two people that continue to pour poison on any CO thread.

[Thaunk]

I'm stoked about it as I love gadgets. How well I'll do is up for debate as I'm still super new.

[OPENB]

I checked that I have no interest in shooting CO, because I just had a sweet open gun built. But I'm curious, do clubs HAVE to offer it as an available division during the provisional period? It could really distort the true interest if MD don't offer it.

[zhunter]

I checked that I have no interest in shooting CO, because I just had a sweet open gun built. But I'm curious, do clubs HAVE to offer it as an available division during the provisional period? It could really distort the true interest if MD don't offer it.

There was an MD in Area 8 this weekend that would not allow a guy to shoot CO.

The club is: Southern Chester, near Kennett Square, PA.

[BritinUSA]

I don't see how an affiliated club can arbitrarily decline to allow a participant in a recognized division. They may choose not to recognize it for awards if participation is low but I don't think they can deny the competitor the opportunity to shoot in that division.

[Nik Habicht]

I don't see how an affiliated club can arbitrarily decline to allow a participant in a recognized division. They may choose not to recognize it for awards if participation is low but I don't think they can deny the competitor the opportunity to shoot in that division.

Of course they can decline to offer a division. Read the rulebook lately Paul?

6.2 Match Divisions

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

There's a requirement to recognize at least one Division (a la SS Nationals or Revolver Nationals) but no requirement to recognize or offer more than one division. If the rules were different they would prevent stand-alone matches of all types.....

Whether it's a bright idea to not offer a division or divisions, is a different discussion.....

[Nimitz]

I asked this question earlier in this thread and Nik provided the same answer ... again. I'm sure he's getting tired of repeating himself ....

the BoD will hopefully consider all factors before making a decision ..... if you know of a club that refuses to offer it, even when there is someone who wants to shoot it, you should report that fact to HQ so they have as much data as possible when making their final decision ....

after all, if they don't approve the division then they can't change the stupid weight limit rule ......

Edited September 20, 2015 by Nimitz

[rumblestrip]

Finally ready to go, and if my was wasn't coming into town today, I'd be out shooting it!

[Sarge]

I don't see how an affiliated club can arbitrarily decline to allow a participant in a recognized division. They may choose not to recognize it for awards if participation is low but I don't think they can deny the competitor the opportunity to shoot in that division.

Of course they can decline to offer a division. Read the rulebook lately Paul?

6.2 Match Divisions

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

There's a requirement to recognize at least one Division (a la SS Nationals or Revolver Nationals) but no requirement to recognize or offer more than one division. If the rules were different they would prevent stand-alone matches of all types.....

Whether it's a bright idea to not offer a division or divisions, is a different discussion.....

Thanks for pointing out that rule.

[zhunter]

Sarge

Honest queston, as an MD now that you know you don't HAVE to offer CO, would you use this rule to not offer it if someone wants to shoot CO?

[Gooldylocks]

I still find it funny that everyone whom is against CO says to go buy an open gun. You aren't even making a close comparison, you are comparing apples to fine caviar. Point me to where I can buy a complete open gun with mags and belt rig for less than $1,000 (that runs)...... and then show me factory loaded 9mm major that will run an open gun that won't break my bank.....

In most threads on BE, I've noticed/ feel that most of the contributing members are reloaders as well. Which after coughing up $2,500+ for an open gun makes an easy transition to the division. When I head to local matches, I see lots of winchester/atlanta arms/etc being used (myself included). Anytime someone asks about an open gun on this forum, the first thing some answers with is- Do you reload?

So why is there so much disgust for a division which allows all those who think open race guns are awesome but don't want to shell the investment out. I don't care if this was a push from plastic gun makers to have their own division, in the past months I've loved shooting a 9mm factory gun with slide red dot, which all my other glock items work with.

I have never told anyone to buy an open gun. I have simply said to shoot in open minor just like hundreds already do and have been doing for quite some time.

While it's true open shooters pretty much must reload their ammo it's also true that any, even semi serious shooter, should be reloading for optimum performance. Shooting a slide mounted optic on a 9mm with factory ammo will be nowhere near as nice as a soft shooting custom load.

I would be curious to hear what type of load works best for CO. Snappy or sluggish are bound to give different results.

I am guessing that a 115 grain load over some kind of fast powder that really snaps the gun would be better/faster when you are shooting a dot. Same idea as open in that regard. light springs and light bullets so it just snaps back with the sights. Minor ammo doesn't have enough recoil to need heavy guns anyway, even with light bullets.

[Sarge]

Sarge

Honest queston, as an MD now that you know you don't HAVE to offer CO, would you use this rule to not offer it if someone wants to shoot CO?

Of course not. Regardless of what I think of the new "division" I'm not going to use a rule as a loophole to keep somebody from shooting it.

It's just nice to know when a shooter shows up and sees that I'm not a fan and says, "Too bad, you have to let me shoot CO", I can actually point to a rule that says "not really". But I doubt that will happen as I have not even seen a real CO gun in person yet.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Sarge

[zhunter]

Sarge

Honest queston, as an MD now that you know you don't HAVE to offer CO, would you use this rule to not offer it if someone wants to shoot CO?

Of course not. Regardless of what I think of the new "division" I'm not going to use a rule as a loophole to keep somebody from shooting it.

It's just nice to know when a shooter shows up and sees that I'm not a fan and says, "Too bad, you have to let me shoot CO", I can actually point to a rule that says "not really". But I doubt that will happen as I have not even seen a real CO gun in person yet.

Cool, glad to hear it back at ya

[GeneBray]

Re MD refusing to allow CO. Was it a Level I match? If not MD, was correct. CO is only available at Level I matches. If it was a Level I match, was the match staff able to score CO. If yes, was the match announced as no CO? If yes, then the MD was within the rules. If CO was not specifically announced as not available the MD may be wrong (continue reading). If the match staff could not score CO, the the staff/club failed to support the match appropriately. The club needs to fix the problem(s) leading to the issue. Finally, other than ability to score CO or the match being Level II or higher, were they other issues which might have prevented the staff from allowing CO to participate? Hard for to come up with an example here, but certain there are other issues which might have prevented supporting the division.

Footnote on scoring. I suspect some clubs still do not use EZ Win Score or Practiscore. Hard for me understand why, none-the-less, there are certainly a few hold outs.

[Sarge]

Re MD refusing to allow CO. Was it a Level I match? If not MD, was correct. CO is only available at Level I matches. If it was a Level I match, was the match staff able to score CO. If yes, was the match announced as no CO? If yes, then the MD was within the rules. If CO was not specifically announced as not available the MD may be wrong (continue reading). If the match staff could not score CO, the the staff/club failed to support the match appropriately. The club needs to fix the problem(s) leading to the issue. Finally, other than ability to score CO or the match being Level II or higher, were they other issues which might have prevented the staff from allowing CO to participate? Hard for to come up with an example here, but certain there are other issues which might have prevented supporting the division.

Footnote on scoring. I suspect some clubs still do not use EZ Win Score or Practiscore. Hard for me understand why, none-the-less, there are certainly a few hold outs.

The rule cited above really doesn't support your stance. A match MUST recognize one division.

[Fuelie777]

My 2 bits. I personnally do not really care one way or another. If it becomes a USPSA cateogory great. Allows newer shooters try dots in USPSA, ok. I know at the local Steel match I run, we already offer the CO as a separate division. Have not seen more than one or two folks shooting this and did not really see if the hardware met the rules, but if it allows people to have fun, compete, maybe convince them to move to Open, then good. I have asked myself if I would try it, and maybe, but first try the dot on a .22 as the few open guns I have fired, I have not learned the trait of finding the dot (but with traing could). Change can be good and bad, but unless you try, we will not know.

Let's see what happens in the next 6 months.

[eric4069]

My 2 bits. I personnally do not really care one way or another. If it becomes a USPSA cateogory great. Allows newer shooters try dots in USPSA, ok. I know at the local Steel match I run, we already offer the CO as a separate division. Have not seen more than one or two folks shooting this and did not really see if the hardware met the rules, but if it allows people to have fun, compete, maybe convince them to move to Open, then good. I have asked myself if I would try it, and maybe, but first try the dot on a .22 as the few open guns I have fired, I have not learned the trait of finding the dot (but with traing could). Change can be good and bad, but unless you try, we will not know.

Let's see what happens in the next 6 months.

I appreciate your attitude of allowing us to give it a try.

thanks,

Eric