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The range lawyers were really out yesterday

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Yesterday, at our local match, we had two rules questions come up that no one could answer...even with the book. The range lawyers delayed us at least another 30 minutes arguing over rules they couldn't even point to in the rule book.

First one has to do with the definition of "retain" For a loaded chamber reload, retain any live ammunition. Our scenario had a table and a box. One of the SO's shooting said that leaving the partially empty mag on the table is retaining it, whereas everyone else thought it had to be retained on your person. Which is right? The current rule book apparently doesn't define "retain".

The other had to do with a malfunctioning gun. A shooter's gun malfunctioned on the second of four stages. The range lawyers said that the only way he could continue would be if he had the same model gun to continue with. I saw nothing like that in the new rule book (though I remember reading that it must be the same "type", not model in a previous version). The only thing I could find referred you to the match director to determine what to do, but implied nothing about letting someone continue. At least I know I beat one person yesterday, though I would prefer it not be that way...lol. I would have loaned him my gun in a heartbeat.

We also had this nasty stage where you shoot 2 shots each at four targets, then run back to 20 yards and do it again. It was unlimited. We had guys shooting makeup shots at 10 yards for the misses they expected they might have at 20 yards, since you couldn't tell which distance the hits were shot from when they were scored.

Opinions: FTDR or simply bad stage design. I would say bad stage design if they hadn't been planning to do it that way. To me it fit the definition: "deliberate attempts on the part of the shooter to circumvent or violate the competition rules to gain a competitive advantage. Any other opinions?

Thanks in advance for any response...unless it's: " that's why you should be shooting USPSA and not IDPA".

gg

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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IDPA rules are written with to much subjectivity of the SO. IDPA has been around long enough to have written a quality rule book, I do not understand why they do not have one yet.

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I have got PE for not picking up all mags (2) on the table for table start stages. I think it makes sense - if you put 2 mags on the table before stage start, but you left the table picking up just 1 mag, it should be a procedural.

That's interesting. I shot a local match this weekend that started with the unloaded gun and mags on a table. After shooting a few targets while seated, you grabbed mag(s) and moved on to one other shooting position. Only one more mag was needed to complete the CoF, but most folks just put their three mags on the table, and left one behind. I prepared to shoot I asked the SO about leaving a mag behind. He thought for a second and said I couldn't. So I didn't. Nor did I argue for all the previous shooters to get PEs. Move along.

FWIW, I found much more range lawyering going on at local USPSA matches than local IDPA. I don't think either rule book is more conducive to that -- it's people who create that.

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I have got PE for not picking up all mags (2) on the table for table start stages. I think it makes sense - if you put 2 mags on the table before stage start, but you left the table picking up just 1 mag, it should be a procedural.

That's interesting. I shot a local match this weekend that started with the unloaded gun and mags on a table. After shooting a few targets while seated, you grabbed mag(s) and moved on to one other shooting position. Only one more mag was needed to complete the CoF, but most folks just put their three mags on the table, and left one behind. I prepared to shoot I asked the SO about leaving a mag behind. He thought for a second and said I couldn't. So I didn't. Nor did I argue for all the previous shooters to get PEs. Move along.

FWIW, I found much more range lawyering going on at local USPSA matches than local IDPA. I don't think either rule book is more conducive to that -- it's people who create that.

Sometimes on stages like that it's beneficial to do a tac load before leaving. Start with one extra mag on the table, instead of storing that before leaving, store the mag you used to shoot the first few targets and load the full one if that gives you enough to finish the stage.

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Sometimes on stages like that it's beneficial to do a tac load before leaving. Start with one extra mag on the table, instead of storing that before leaving, store the mag you used to shoot the first few targets and load the full one if that gives you enough to finish the stage.

That'a exactly what most folks did. However, "technically" this that had all three mags there and left one behind probably violated the "no mag left behind" rule. And why I asked.

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The best thing to do is not worry about the rule book, ask the SO running the stage. I have seen this go both ways, leave mag on table, or be forced to retain it on my person, this has been at local as well as Major matches. I have not found it beneficial to argue either way with the SO I just do it the way it is described in the stage brief and ask question before I shoot to be sure. I don't enjoy arguing over rules, IDPA has rules I don't like but I enjoy shooting and some IDPA matches are fun so I just go with it.

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If you don't need 3 mags, couldn't you just put 2 on the table and leave the rest in your bag/pocket/cart?

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If you don't need 3 mags, couldn't you just put 2 on the table and leave the rest in your bag/pocket/cart?

I see a lot of ESP/SSP guys do this.

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IDPA rules are written with to much subjectivity of the SO. IDPA has been around long enough to have written a quality rule book, I do not understand why they do not have one yet.

Agreed. Sooo many missed opportunities to get it right. I'm only hanging on because of where I shoot and the people I shoot with.

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at our local match,

At a local match I do not argue procedural rules.

Person gets all in a twist about a procedural I gave - who cares, take it off of his score and let your squad go back to having fun.

Somebody gives me a procedural I do not agree with, same difference.

Have seen the issue in both USPSA and IDPA, just comes up more often in the latter.

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Again, I will state this isn't an IDPA or USPSA specific issue. It's a people issue. Contrasted with IHAVEGAS's experience, I've experienced it more at USPSA matches. It's how it's handled that matters. I was called for a PE at the West VA match, which I didn't agree with. The SO said don't enter it yet, let's investigate, and get the next shooter going. As the following shooter shot, we discussed and it was agreed the PE was called in error. Move along. No other shooters were delayed, there was no big scene. If the PE had stood, it could have been entered between shooters and still no other shooters would have been delayed and no big scene caused.

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at our local match,

At a local match I do not argue procedural rules.

Person gets all in a twist about a procedural I gave - who cares, take it off of his score and let your squad go back to having fun.

Somebody gives me a procedural I do not agree with, same difference.

Have seen the issue in both USPSA and IDPA, just comes up more often in the latter.

This only contributes to our problem as an organization. There needs to be consistency. Not just from club to club but from SO to SO.

It's ok to argue PEs. It's not ok to just roll over for the sake of efficiency. "It's just a local match" is the worst cop out we use. That breeds bad habits for shooters and SOs that are going to get a rude awakening when they attend other local matches, or worse yet, major matches.

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at our local match,

At a local match I do not argue procedural rules.

Person gets all in a twist about a procedural I gave - who cares, take it off of his score and let your squad go back to having fun.

Somebody gives me a procedural I do not agree with, same difference.

Have seen the issue in both USPSA and IDPA, just comes up more often in the latter.

This only contributes to our problem as an organization. There needs to be consistency. Not just from club to club but from SO to SO.

It's ok to argue PEs. It's not ok to just roll over for the sake of efficiency. "It's just a local match" is the worst cop out we use. That breeds bad habits for shooters and SOs that are going to get a rude awakening when they attend other local matches, or worse yet, major matches.

We completely disagree, but it is not important to me and I see no need to debate it with you.

See, like that :) .

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The sanctioned matches I've been to have basically been big local matches: improper range commands about 80% of the time, questionable cover interpretations, even saw a guy AD and not get DQ'd.

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