The range lawyers were really out yesterday

[robport]

Yesterday, at our local match, we had two rules questions come up that no one could answer...even with the book. The range lawyers delayed us at least another 30 minutes arguing over rules they couldn't even point to in the rule book.

First one has to do with the definition of "retain" For a loaded chamber reload, retain any live ammunition. Our scenario had a table and a box. One of the SO's shooting said that leaving the partially empty mag on the table is retaining it, whereas everyone else thought it had to be retained on your person. Which is right? The current rule book apparently doesn't define "retain".

The other had to do with a malfunctioning gun. A shooter's gun malfunctioned on the second of four stages. The range lawyers said that the only way he could continue would be if he had the same model gun to continue with. I saw nothing like that in the new rule book (though I remember reading that it must be the same "type", not model in a previous version). The only thing I could find referred you to the match director to determine what to do, but implied nothing about letting someone continue. At least I know I beat one person yesterday, though I would prefer it not be that way...lol. I would have loaned him my gun in a heartbeat.

We also had this nasty stage where you shoot 2 shots each at four targets, then run back to 20 yards and do it again. It was unlimited. We had guys shooting makeup shots at 10 yards for the misses they expected they might have at 20 yards, since you couldn't tell which distance the hits were shot from when they were scored.

Opinions: FTDR or simply bad stage design. I would say bad stage design if they hadn't been planning to do it that way. To me it fit the definition: "deliberate attempts on the part of the shooter to circumvent or violate the competition rules to gain a competitive advantage. Any other opinions?

Thanks in advance for any response...unless it's: " that's why you should be shooting USPSA and not IDPA".

[Jim Watson]

Retain: You are right, it is not defined in the rule book. So let's study English. Dictionary definition No 1: Keep in possession or use.

So, if Smart Guy "retains" his partly loaded magazine on the table, is it in his possession and available for use for the rest of the stage? If all shooting is from the table, you could make a case for that. If one leaves arm's reach of the table, the mag is not retained.

In my experience, when the question is asked before the start, the answer is that the magazine must be retained on the person, not on a prop.

Malfunction: 8.1.5.5 Any same-division legal replacement firearm may be used.

Stage design: It should have been scored Limited if the intent was to test shooting at both short range and long.

[Pat Miles]

Kinda takes all the fun out of shooting.

[robport]

I still had fun, but it sure was distracting.

Wow, rule 8.1.5.5...none of the four people going through the books thought to look there...thanks!

Edited August 1, 2015 by robport

[Glockinator]

IDPA rules just completely turned me off. They seem to bring on this type of silly behavior.

[Pat Miles]

I still had fun, but it sure was distracting.

Wow, rule 8.1.5.5...none of the four people going through the books thought to look there...thanks!

Good to hear that you still had fun, that's the way it should be.

I don't shoot IDPA so I don't know how thick the rule book is but it helps to sit down on one of those cold, ugly days and read it. You'll have a good idea of what you can and can't do as well as settle problems such as what happened.

[Gregg K]

We also had this nasty stage where you shoot 2 shots each at four targets, then run back to 20 yards and do it again. It was unlimited. We had guys shooting makeup shots at 10 yards for the misses they expected they might have at 20 yards, since you couldn't tell which distance the hits were shot from when they were scored.

Opinions: FTDR or simply bad stage design. I would say bad stage design if they hadn't been planning to do it that way. To me it fit the definition: "deliberate attempts on the part of the shooter to circumvent or violate the competition rules to gain a competitive advantage. Any other opinions?

Thanks in advance for any response...unless it's: " that's why you should be shooting USPSA and not IDPA".

The only FTDR is for the stage designer, this was an illegal stage. The movement was too far.

6.11 Shooter movement under his/her own power of more than ten (10) yards (9.1 meters) between firing points is not permitted. Total shooter movement under his/her own power of more than fifteen (15) yards (13.7 meters) is not permitted.

[Jeff82]

The only FTDR is for the stage designer, this was an illegal stage. The movement was too far.

6.11 Shooter movement under his/her own power of more than ten (10) yards (9.1 meters) between firing points is not permitted. Total shooter movement under his/her own power of more than fifteen (15) yards (13.7 meters) is not permitted.

If P1 was just ten yards from P2 then it would be legal.

Sent from my Galaxy S5 Sport using Tapatalk.

[robport]

It was exactly 10 yards, because I set it up and measured it. I didn't design it though...lol

[freeidaho]

In the Q&A tool, this answer was given for retention;

Magazine retention: these places include pants pocket; vest pocket; jacket pocket; waistband and ammunition carrier. The use of specially designed pockets; modified pockets; shirt or upper vest pockets; hands or teeth are not permitted.

[Forrest Halley]

It was a local match and folks couldn't be "good" enough to let the guy finish? Wow.

Retain simple keep on person in belt on in pockets below chest or ammo carriers. Stow before shot.

Somebody needs to tell these people they are delaying the match. Or that they are displaying unsportsmanlike conduct...and may be subject to disqualification if they continue...seriously it's a local match...get a life.

[Buzzdraw]

This problem is not limited to IDPA. Most all range lawyer issues are resolved by simply referring to the CURRENT Rulebook. Too often range lawyers are remembering an older book. Sometimes they are trying to mix in rules from another discipline. Just go look it up in the current Rulebook.

A 30 min. delay on a match stage due to range lawyering is intolerable. The MD can resolve issues like this, with the complainants only, off to the side while the match continues.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Buzzdraw

[elguapo]

30 min delay for range lawyering: I probably would have left

[GOF]

A well-written Rule Book would stop a lot of that crap. But, IDPA has never, and still doesn't, have a Rule Book written in simple/concise language. When the New rule book was under construction members were assured that it would be put together by skilled technical writers who understood the sport. I don't think that actually came to pass.

I understand technical writing. I made my living at it for a number of years. I don't see precise/concise language in the new rule book.

Edited August 18, 2015 by GOF

[racknrider]

I see a bunch of mid level shooters arguing over minutiae while the good shooters step up and win the stages.

[mike l m]

I guess this is why IDPA is losing shooters to USPSA and 3 GUN.

Make something rule heavy and it becomes a turn off very quickly.

IMO

Thanks,

Mike

[racknrider]

I get confused by the reference to all the IDPA rules. Basically you wear concealment, use cover, and don't drop loaded magazines. Has anyone read the USPSA rules forum lately? Sheeeesh

[MilkMyDuds]

Retain: You are right, it is not defined in the rule book. So let's study English. Dictionary definition No 1: Keep in possession or use.

So, if Smart Guy "retains" his partly loaded magazine on the table, is it in his possession and available for use for the rest of the stage? If all shooting is from the table, you could make a case for that. If one leaves arm's reach of the table, the mag is not retained.

In my experience, when the question is asked before the start, the answer is that the magazine must be retained on the person, not on a prop.

I have got PE for not picking up all mags (2) on the table for table start stages. I think it makes sense - if you put 2 mags on the table before stage start, but you left the table picking up just 1 mag, it should be a procedural.

However, if you look at the 2011 IDPA World Shoot, at 4'18'', the shooter did just that. I don't think he got a PE because I do not see any finger from either of the two SOs. The next guy at 4'46'' did that again.

[elguapo]

I get confused by the reference to all the IDPA rules. Basically you wear concealment, use cover, and don't drop loaded magazines. Has anyone read the USPSA rules forum lately? Sheeeesh

You forgot to add: shoot the course of fire the way we tell you

The majority of rules in USPSA are safety and administration related. None force you to shoot a stage in any way, except classifiers (duh)

[daytona955i]

The same make/action/model rule died with the new rule book (eg. Glock 34, 17, 19, 26). Any same division legal firearm can be used once a gun is deemed unserviceable.

[Chutist]

IDPA rules just completely turned me off. They seem to bring on this type of silly behavior.

I guess this is why IDPA is losing shooters to USPSA and 3 GUN.

Make something rule heavy and it becomes a turn off very quickly.

IMO

Thanks,

Mike

Every once'n a while I think about giving IDPA a go... Then I read about stuff like this, truthfully, it doesn't make me want to go try it.

[racknrider]

IDPA rules just completely turned me off. They seem to bring on this type of silly behavior.

I guess this is why IDPA is losing shooters to USPSA and 3 GUN.

Make something rule heavy and it becomes a turn off very quickly.

IMO

Thanks,

Mike

Every once'n a while I think about giving IDPA a go... Then I read about stuff like this, truthfully, it doesn't make me want to go try it.

Why not go shoot a match and decide for yourself instead of listening to a bunch of Internet bitching?

[Jake Di Vita]

Why not go shoot a match and decide for yourself instead of listening to a bunch of Internet bitching?

A lot of people make decisions on products/services to use based on the reviews of it.

I started out shooting competition in IDPA about 15 years ago...the last IDPA match I shot was about 11 years ago. The original post illustrates only about 50% of the reason I made that choice.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Jake Di Vita

[BillR1]

Why not go shoot a match and decide for yourself instead of listening to a bunch of Internet bitching?

THIS! ^^^

[rowdyb]

I like shooting idpa stages just fine. They are a fun challenge. Two years of shooting a lot of idpa had me shooting things/scenarios I never have in uspsa. Conversely I am presented with shooting challenges in uspsa I'll never see in idpa.

Two years in of idpa and one year in of uspsa and the only arguing I hear at uspsa matches are about scoring of hits, ie wanting an overlay or calling a double and people dq-ed for breaking the 180 and accusing the RO of blindness. While as in idpa I heard much more procedural arguing related to the actual shooting, cover calls, stage brief and so on. I also saw far far more stages in idpa that were in violation of the rule book than i do in uspsa.

I need to work harder about being complimentary to both.