robbiec Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 What's the next step in dealing with the habitual non-resetter? We seem to have exhausted the polite route of asking them to get up and tape/reset steel. Does anyone have any luck in changing the habits of the worst squad members?Can you impose a procedural under 10.1.1 if it is written in the stage briefing?10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to complywith procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officerimposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed,on the competitor’s score sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Just wait for their turn to shoot and don't set the stage. Works every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Just wait for their turn to shoot and don't set the stage. Works every time. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 We have rolling squads here. If you aren't setting when called your card will get moved to the bottom of the stack. Repeat as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Just wait for their turn to shoot and don't set the stage. Works every time. I like that idea! +1^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 What's the next step in dealing with the habitual non-resetter? We seem to have exhausted the polite route of asking them to get up and tape/reset steel. Does anyone have any luck in changing the habits of the worst squad members? Can you impose a procedural under 10.1.1 if it is written in the stage briefing? 10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed,on the competitor’s score sheet. No, you can't impose a procedural for not resetting. Have you taken it to the match director/RM? A DQ is possible under 10.6. I like the stage not reset option -- but if you're at your wits end then I'd recommend grabbing the MD. I'd try talking to the shooter, explain that it's a volunteer sport and he needs to work at least some of the time, in some way, and if I couldn't get cooperation as the match director, I'd refund his entry fee, and invite him to go shoot elsewhere.... I've had competitors who couldn't easily bend over and reset steel -- but who would run shooters or run the board/Nook. I've had competitors who couldn't confidently manage the nook, but who were hell on resetting stages. I've had competitors who'd show up early, build a stage, rest as much during the match (i.e. reset as little as possible) and then stay until every last piece had been put away. I've had competitors who would manage all of the above at the same time. And I managed to turn a few non-contributors into folks who at least make an effort to help -- they may not really want to, but they get the need, and they do the work. I'm good with all of the above...... Odds are a conversation needs to be had between the MD and the competitor...... Here's the counter point though -- if you opt not to reset the stage, and the competitor gets the message and starts helping (you've achieved your desired goal) then let it go, and go about business as usual.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 It's a volunteer sport. If you want to help, the match fee is X. If not, the match fee is X+$75. and you can give $5 back to each other person on the squad. Being old and broken myself I can understand those that can't and I am happy that they were able to just make it out and shoot. I try to run them through first and let them get home, especially in these 100 degree days. Those that are capable and lazy...I have no patience for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 It's a volunteer sport. If you want to help, the match fee is X. If not, the match fee is X+$75. and you can give $5 back to each other person on the squad. Being old and broken myself I can understand those that can't and I am happy that they were able to just make it out and shoot. I try to run them through first and let them get home, especially in these 100 degree days. Those that are capable and lazy...I have no patience for them. I thought you missed tonight's match due to something important, but instead you were right here on BE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Is the 'Shooter" that doesn't help to set or tape? Score or run the clock? Pretends to be cleaning mags when it's time to help, spends the rest of the time brassing, without asking anyone, before the squad is done with the stage? And doesn't even offer anyone a handfull of brass? The one that wan'ts a reshoot for a mike because he didn't see it? And who wan'ts to argue for a double when he does? Tells everyone else how to make the run, and if they ran the same gun he had there wouldn't be any jams. Want to make sure that is the guy you describe. Well, we just went thru this last week, and you can try everything that has been said allready (except the match fee thing), but at the end of the day, there is only one way to deal with it. Tell the shooter he is NOT WELCOME on your squad. Don't explain it, just say it and hand him back his paper. And guess what, he is not welcome on anyone elses squad either because of the same behavior. So go bitch to the match director (I never seen them give money back). And the match director will tell him he is expected to help, just like everyone else on the squad. And he if doesn't like it, take up bowling or golf. So that leaves 2 options, find another match where that behaviour is tolerated or he can be a squad of one (bring your own clock). Course the competiting shooting world is pretty small, and within a 100 mile radius around here everyone knows everyone else. Edited July 21, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The simplest solution is for the MD to speak to the person and if they persist, tell them not to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The simplest solution is for the MD to speak to the person and if they persist, tell them not to come back. That may sound like a good idea, however, I have yet to find an MD that will get involved . . . and I have tried. "Well, I suggest you not squad with him the next time", is the usual response. As for a brass hog, if I see someone picking up brass after I have just shot, I walk up to them with my hands out and thank them for picking up my brass. It has worked every time for me, and they do not pick up brass after I shoot, the rest of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 We have a SO (I shoot The Other Game) with a loud shrill voice. When he yells PASTERS! at least some of the duds get off their duff. Back when I would RO or SO, I took the other approach. If I had a timer or scorecard, I never touched a paster. If the targets didn't get pasted, I would just stand there with the next shooter until somebody figured out the problem. Nowadays, I will relieve the SO to time and watch the shooter, write down scores (I do not think digital device scoring is mature enough for regular use and will not use one.) and will paste targets and set up steel. I do not mess with other people's mechanical toys other than to set up the activating popper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The simplest solution is for the MD to speak to the person and if they persist, tell them not to come back. That may sound like a good idea, however, I have yet to find an MD that will get involved . . . and I have tried. "Well, I suggest you not squad with him the next time", is the usual response. I can't speak for all MD's but I've never hesitated to speak with someone. Only had to do it twice in 4 years. I did actively encourage the RO's to ensure that everyone took their turn and made that a part of the match briefing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I ran into this earlier this year with a husband/wife team who didn't do squat at any of the matches they went to. I had the misfortune of squading with them at a couple of matches and witnessed first hand their laziness. I tried my best to give them the whole "This is a volunteer sport and everyone has to pitch in to make it happen" squad mate talk to prod them into working but it never stuck. Then they happened to show up at the club match I am the MD at and I happened to be doing registration that day. When they signed up I told them point blank that their entry fee does not entitle them to doing NOTHING other than shoot when its their turn. I told them that they are REQUIRED to help work the stage just like everyone else and if that is a problem, there is the door. They seemed shocked at being called out but agreed to work and paid their entry fee. I observed them during the match actually working in taping targets and resetting steel. But shortly after that match they both stopped shooting the local matches. I guess they finally got the message of "Shape up or Ship out". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racnsoonr Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Another idea for the MD is to announce at the shooters meeting that resetting is required and add it to the stage briefings for a few matches (if that's allowed?) Then, you can award procedurals as required. If the repeat offender has already been spoken to then there isn't much ekse to do except tell them they aren't welcome if they can't play by the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Another idea for the MD is to announce at the shooters meeting that resetting is required and add it to the stage briefings for a few matches (if that's allowed?) Then, you can award procedurals as required. If the repeat offender has already been spoken to then there isn't much ekse to do except tell them they aren't welcome if they can't play by the rules I hate'm just as much as anyone else, however, the rule book does not cover this topic. You can not give a procedural because someone does not help paste and reset. "Can't play by the rules" does not apply. Best course of action, as I see it, is make them feel unwelcome. I, personally, would ask them not to return if I were in a position of authority . . . match director or club official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flack jacket Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Happens everywhere. We've noticed after the shooter completed their run. There is a tendency to go back uprange at spectator area, clean mags, load mags and tend to watch from there. That could happen 2-3 shooters later, oops! The squad is done, no need to help. Solution: During Pre match safety briefing. "When the shooter is finished with their stage, please remain on stage to help reset and tape, there is plenty of time between stages to clean and load mags since the next stage is likely occupied." Seems to work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Happens everywhere. We've noticed after the shooter completed their run. There is a tendency to go back uprange at spectator area, clean mags, load mags and tend to watch from there. That could happen 2-3 shooters later, oops! The squad is done, no need to help. Solution: During Pre match safety briefing. "When the shooter is finished with their stage, please remain on stage to help reset and tape, there is plenty of time between stages to clean and load mags since the next stage is likely occupied." Seems to work... I agree with most everything in this thread. I feel like I work as much as possible. RO'ing, resetting, taping, scoring, etc. However, I shoot Production and I often have at least 3 mags to clean after a run. I prefer to clean and load mags after my run. I've been burned by waiting to clean/load until the next stage too many times. Sure sometimes you get stuck behind a squad full of said slackers and you're constantly waiting when arriving to the next stage. Sometimes, the stars are aligned every squad is making good time. I want to make sure I can check out the stage again and be ready to go if I happen to be one of the first three shooters. I don't like having to rush loading and cleaning on the next stage. I don't think it's unreasonable to clean/load mags after you're done shooting if you're working the majority of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I don't think that anyone can give a shooter a hard time for not "Working" right after their stage run and they are actively cleaning their mags. Sure some low capacity divisions take more time to clean and refill their multiple mags, but that is to be expected as well. Its pretty obvious when shooters are "Milking" their post stage run mag clean up/reset process. If you are shooting Limited or Open and taking longer than a Single Stack shooter who needs to clean 3 - 5 mags to clean your ONE dropped mag then you are being a slacker. I have on occasion called out these "Milkers" by simply telling them "HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO CLEAN ONE MAGAZINE??? QUIT SCREWING AROUND AND GET TO WORK". More often than not, when people know they can't get away with slacking because they will be called out, they usually choose to not do it. The problems usually start to happen when shooters think that subtle hints or common sense should be obvious to these slackers and expect them to magically change their ways without a swift kick in the ass. Unfortunately these type of people usually need a regular swift kick in the ass to keep them in line. So don't beat around the bush and call them out on their bullshit openly, directly, and loudly when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 This brings up a more difficult thing, the unintentional slacker(s). Just to be clear, there's a difference between the sometime slacker and the chronic slacker. I've noticed that during the first 2-3 stages, plenty of people are resetting and it's not hard to find people to score and record, etc. But it starts to slow down during the last half of the match. People are more relaxed and are talking more, getting a bit tired and munching on snacks, etc. Each stage seems to take a bit longer, and it's occasionally necessary for the RO to holler at people to keep it down while staging a shooter. Everyone seems to fall into this for a while from time to time and there's really no getting around it. I noticed it on our 5th stage this past weekend when I was walking back from resetting the steel and found that none of the targets on one side of the range were pasted. Had a look and everyone seemed busy relaxing and I had to call for some more tapers. Didn't happen again that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiec Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 Just wait for their turn to shoot and don't set the stage. Works every time. Unfortunately, we might have to give this a try. MD and others have tried to talk to this shooter with no avail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Happens everywhere. We've noticed after the shooter completed their run. There is a tendency to go back uprange at spectator area, clean mags, load mags and tend to watch from there. That could happen 2-3 shooters later, oops! The squad is done, no need to help. Solution: During Pre match safety briefing. "When the shooter is finished with their stage, please remain on stage to help reset and tape, there is plenty of time between stages to clean and load mags since the next stage is likely occupied." Seems to work... I don't really agree with taping on a stage you've just completed. Last week, I happened to be close to the farthest targets and I thought the RO had already scored, so I taped it. I was wrong, so I shot that stage for no score. My fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 A shooter who has just made his run is not excpected to set and tape, he needs to check out his hits, just as the on deck shooter is not expected to help so he can get his mojo on. Now the rest of time all of the shooters on the squad should be helping. There is plenty of time to clean mags and load when your waiting at the next stage. Doesn't apply to me anyway as I shoot Glocks, and usually only wipe off the outside. I take them apart about once a year, or about, when the springs seem to feel week (+6's). Also have 6 mags so I can always walk onto at least 2 stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 It's also worth mentioning that the number of people on a squad can effect this. At any one time, you have several people tied up as either RO's (timer/scorekeeper), getting ready to shoot, or just having shot If you have small squads, then that can leave only a few people to reset and no real time for anyone to sit. It quickly becomes apparent if anyone is slacking. On the other hand, large squads make it easy for someone to slack off without really being noticed. It's frequently not the RO who's going to notice the slacker but other shooters who wonder why that guy gets to sit and watch while they reset. Frequently, no one will say anything and it just goes on unnoticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levellinebrad Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I have resorted to name calling and violence. A couple of broken fingers goes a long way! Insert smiley here. I do constantly remind the squad that they need to reset and paste. I have had a couple of high school kids refuse to paste. When it came time for them to shoot, I refused to RO and no one else was an actual RO. It got the point across and they pasted the rest of the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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