Who would you go to for XD accuracy work?

[Loves2Shoot]

You can hit a 1" paster at 25 yards with good ammo and a steady hold, but that wasn't what you were asking.

[IHAVEGAS]

I give up.

[Forrest Halley]

It would be nice, and I think it is a big reason why Les Baer guns are typically guns that you have to order and wait for, but as you have pointed out perhaps not a lot can be expected from the polymer guns?

I think that the polymer guns can be quite a crap shoot. Look at the M&P's...some wouldn't shoot worth a tinker's...

The manufacturers are savvy enough to realize that most people will not see the inaccuracies because they do not have the skill to pick up on the fact that the bullets aren't flying by the sights. Therefore, quality control slips and customer service picks up the scraps. I am just goofy enough to sit there and keep going at it over and over to get things as close as I can before coming to terms that the failure may not be caused by me. Maybe you might just start with an aftermarket barrel and see if that works. Before you do that change the style of target you are shooting at for groups. You may have picked a target that contrasts poorly with your sights. Good luck.

[mikeinctown]

I have no dog in this hunt, but if a respected gunsmith who is used by professionals tells me that they put the same amount of effort into every gun, then I don't need a guarantee. I can be nearly 100% assured that I am going to get something back that was better than when it left my hands. In the unlikely event that something isn't up to snuff, the respectable people will go out of their way to verify things and double check to make sure.

As I'm the one who hires and supervises contractors for my location with the company I am with, I don't often worry about a guarantee. I look at the professionalism of the company, the clients they have worked with, and the willingness and likelyhood that they will fix any issue should I not be satisfied with their work. Because people in the gun world tend to to to or away from people based on word of mouth advertising more than most industries, it is in the best interest of a professional to take care of any unsatisfied customers. I can't see how this would ever be an issue with any of the well respected shops.

[IHAVEGAS]

As I'm the one who hires and supervises contractors for my location with the company I am with, I don't often worry about a guarantee. .

Interesting. My company spends a lot of time making sure service contracts are as detailed about measurable results and payment schedules as is practical, and a purchasing agent would always let me know if I was ambiguous or if I screwed up the fine points on a purchase order ( those folks have a thing about 'will' and 'shall').

I would not say that you are wrong, but just that we are very different types of customers. To me, tying down the measurables makes things better for both parties and it is just the way I do business, effort or good intentions won't buy baby new shoes . The other thing is, individuals on this thread aside, sometimes you get hosed if you are not careful.

Edited August 17, 2015 by IHAVEGAS

[mikeinctown]

A guarantee and expecting work to be performed as outlined in a proposal are two different things.

For example, if I wanted work done on my parking lot I may require the contractor to use a specific mix of asphalt, a certain depth, not paved under x temperature, grind out x areas first, etc. Those are all measurable and can be verified by inspection. They can't guarantee that I won't have cracks in the pavement 6 months fom now or that the new pavement will last x number of years. It just isn't prctical, and if they did, I'd be paying a hell of a lot more for the service. Likewise, if you tell a gunsmith you want x barrel purchased, fitted, trigger work done, and so on, if they have done the work and it can be verified by inspection or test firing, feel etc then they have done as you have contracted them to do. A guarantee is not needed because offering one up would force prices to rise because on the off chance something isn't improved, one must incur additional costs to keep working at it and so that cost must be spread to all other consumers of that product. Basically, guarantees are a marketing term to make the consumer feel like he has confidence in the company he is purchasing a product from. When a company has a very good reputation, guarantees normally aren't needed.

[IHAVEGAS]

A guarantee and expecting work to be performed as outlined in a proposal are two different things.

For example, if I wanted work done on my parking lot I may require the contractor to use a specific mix of asphalt, a certain depth, not paved under x temperature, grind out x areas first, etc. Those are all measurable and can be verified by inspection. They can't guarantee that I won't have cracks in the pavement 6 months fom now or that the new pavement will last x number of years. It just isn't prctical, and if they did, I'd be paying a hell of a lot more for the service. Likewise, if you tell a gunsmith you want x barrel purchased, fitted, trigger work done, and so on, if they have done the work and it can be verified by inspection or test firing, feel etc then they have done as you have contracted them to do. A guarantee is not needed because offering one up would force prices to rise because on the off chance something isn't improved, one must incur additional costs to keep working at it and so that cost must be spread to all other consumers of that product. Basically, guarantees are a marketing term to make the consumer feel like he has confidence in the company he is purchasing a product from. When a company has a very good reputation, guarantees normally aren't needed.

I understand your opinion, we just do not agree.

Peace.

[Loves2Shoot]

A guarantee and expecting work to be performed as outlined in a proposal are two different things.

For example, if I wanted work done on my parking lot I may require the contractor to use a specific mix of asphalt, a certain depth, not paved under x temperature, grind out x areas first, etc. Those are all measurable and can be verified by inspection. They can't guarantee that I won't have cracks in the pavement 6 months fom now or that the new pavement will last x number of years. It just isn't prctical, and if they did, I'd be paying a hell of a lot more for the service. Likewise, if you tell a gunsmith you want x barrel purchased, fitted, trigger work done, and so on, if they have done the work and it can be verified by inspection or test firing, feel etc then they have done as you have contracted them to do. A guarantee is not needed because offering one up would force prices to rise because on the off chance something isn't improved, one must incur additional costs to keep working at it and so that cost must be spread to all other consumers of that product. Basically, guarantees are a marketing term to make the consumer feel like he has confidence in the company he is purchasing a product from. When a company has a very good reputation, guarantees normally aren't needed.

Most all of our customers understand this. A very small minority want something that can only be tested subjectively to have an objective "guarantee."

[IHAVEGAS]

A guarantee and expecting work to be performed as outlined in a proposal are two different things.

For example, if I wanted work done on my parking lot I may require the contractor to use a specific mix of asphalt, a certain depth, not paved under x temperature, grind out x areas first, etc. Those are all measurable and can be verified by inspection. They can't guarantee that I won't have cracks in the pavement 6 months fom now or that the new pavement will last x number of years. It just isn't prctical, and if they did, I'd be paying a hell of a lot more for the service. Likewise, if you tell a gunsmith you want x barrel purchased, fitted, trigger work done, and so on, if they have done the work and it can be verified by inspection or test firing, feel etc then they have done as you have contracted them to do. A guarantee is not needed because offering one up would force prices to rise because on the off chance something isn't improved, one must incur additional costs to keep working at it and so that cost must be spread to all other consumers of that product. Basically, guarantees are a marketing term to make the consumer feel like he has confidence in the company he is purchasing a product from. When a company has a very good reputation, guarantees normally aren't needed.

Most all of our customers understand this. A very small minority want something that can only be tested subjectively to have an objective "guarantee."

Hmmm.

Outside of this thread, the firearms business is sort of the gold standard for guarantees in general. "Lifetime of the original purchaser" , "no questions asked" , etc, are the guarantees / warrantees that costumers enjoy with about any handgun purchase and with many or most fire arm accessory related purchases. The assumption of that most basic level of consumer protection does not seem unusual. Warranties are a money maker for most handgun companies as they promote sales by increased consumer confidence.

There is obviously a cost to providing a warranty, but there is only a meaningful cost when the product does not meet warranty requirements in a significant number of instances. My intuition is that if the provider feels the need to pass all risk to the consumer then questions should be asked.

It is not obvious why accuracy would be subjective to one vendor but objective to many others. In regard to accuracy, I believe that all major manufacturers have a specification and guarantee for each major model of handgun. I think Springfield guarantees the full size XD for example to be capable of 5" 20 yard groups, but I'm quoting the numbers from memory here so a call to Springfield would get a more reliable specification.

Edited August 18, 2015 by IHAVEGAS

[Loves2Shoot]

As explain many times, the plastic frame and fit between the slide and frame do not lend this pistol to fixture shooting so it takes a human. 5" is an overly huge spec, and pretty much meaningless.

[sfinney]

I like to shoot all of new or rebuilt guns once or twice for group while Im sighting in. But I do it offhand, not a rest. I like to what that gun is capable of, in my hands, with my ammo.

I do not do it from a rest as I dont bring a rest to matches. Its more a real world test..... not a theoretical one. What my gun can do theoretically in perfect conditions is irrelevant to me.

I understand the mental reassurance of an accurracy guarantee. I love making one ragged hole with a pistol, at any distance.. But for the type of shooting I'm doing I just need sub A zone or steel accuracy. Anything else is up to me.

[IHAVEGAS]

As explain many times, the plastic frame and fit between the slide and frame do not lend this pistol to fixture shooting so it takes a human. 5" is an overly huge spec, and pretty much meaningless.

Yes you made the plastic frame / ransom rest point clear previously, I'm not sure why you would think that a human can not be involved in an objective test though, if that is the point you are making now.

[IHAVEGAS]

I like to shoot all of new or rebuilt guns once or twice for group while Im sighting in. But I do it offhand, not a rest. I like to what that gun is capable of, in my hands, with my ammo.

I do not do it from a rest as I dont bring a rest to matches. Its more a real world test..... not a theoretical one. What my gun can do theoretically in perfect conditions is irrelevant to me.

I understand the mental reassurance of an accurracy guarantee. I love making one ragged hole with a pistol, at any distance.. But for the type of shooting I'm doing I just need sub A zone or steel accuracy. Anything else is up to me.

No issues. I've never had a gun shoot well in hand but shoot poorly on a bench (or the other way around) though, so the data is valuable to me.

[Loves2Shoot]

As explain many times, the plastic frame and fit between the slide and frame do not lend this pistol to fixture shooting so it takes a human. 5" is an overly huge spec, and pretty much meaningless.

Yes you made the plastic frame / ransom rest point clear previously, I'm not sure why you would think that a human can not be involved in an objective test though, if that is the point you are making now.

Objective is mechanically repeatable to a very high percentage. A good shooter can observe that the bullet went where it the sights said it should go. The groups size could be larger than the perfect group and be a very straight shooting gun. I've given you that data, and you said is not valuable.

[IHAVEGAS]

As explain many times, the plastic frame and fit between the slide and frame do not lend this pistol to fixture shooting so it takes a human. 5" is an overly huge spec, and pretty much meaningless.

Yes you made the plastic frame / ransom rest point clear previously, I'm not sure why you would think that a human can not be involved in an objective test though, if that is the point you are making now.

Objective is mechanically repeatable to a very high percentage. A good shooter can observe that the bullet went where it the sights said it should go. The groups size could be larger than the perfect group and be a very straight shooting gun. I've given you that data, and you said is not valuable.

The data would be a test group fired from my gun under controlled conditions, which is where this thread started .

[Loves2Shoot]

As explain many times, the plastic frame and fit between the slide and frame do not lend this pistol to fixture shooting so it takes a human. 5" is an overly huge spec, and pretty much meaningless.

Yes you made the plastic frame / ransom rest point clear previously, I'm not sure why you would think that a human can not be involved in an objective test though, if that is the point you are making now.

Objective is mechanically repeatable to a very high percentage. A good shooter can observe that the bullet went where it the sights said it should go. The groups size could be larger than the perfect group and be a very straight shooting gun. I've given you that data, and you said is not valuable.

The data would be a test group fired from my gun under controlled conditions, which is where this thread started .

I have a Bruce Gray to shoot the best groups possible, but as I originally stated, we would have to do a before and after to obtain the detail you requested. That is cost prohibitive for most folks.

[mikeinctown]

You are asking for something not possible because of the variables involved. Gun A may react differently with brand A bullets than with brand B bullets. It will react differently with your powder/primer/brass/bullet combination than it will anyone else's. Even with factory ammo, no gun will fire exactly the same. What you want is a guarantee that the gun will fire better with an unknown ammo than it does with another unknown ammo. This is simply not logical and is impossible.

What you really need to look at is;

What work are you contracting for.

What parts are you contracting for.

What other services are you contracting for.

The work is new barrel fitting, trigger fitting or polishing, etc.

The parts are the barrel, sear, trigger, etc. The parts often have a warrantee or guarantee. Most companies will do this. A part is not subjective as it either performs as expected or it does not. I don't think that is the issue here.

Other services... This is the part you want but don't appear to be willing to pay for or understand. You want the company to perform a test both before and after and based on said tests, to continue to adjust performance. The problem is, #1 it costs $$$ to have someone keep testing your gun, and #2 it is a used gun. How can someone make a guarantee that they can get it performing any better? (and as I said above, better with what ammo?)

Even in your statement above about a purchasing agent, they will understand when something is out of the control of the person doing the work. Most likely the person doing the work will have this built into the contract or proposal. Their work will perform to such and such a standard, but only to a standard that they can control. I know for a fact they will almost NEVER guarantee a percentage difference because of how many variables most things have, unless the person doing the work can control every variable. This is why it is important for the person requesting the work to be done actually knows what the hell they are talking about and what the potential positives AND negatives are. if you take any project management course through an organization, they will tell you the very same thing I just did.

[IHAVEGAS]

As explain many times, the plastic frame and fit between the slide and frame do not lend this pistol to fixture shooting so it takes a human. 5" is an overly huge spec, and pretty much meaningless.

Yes you made the plastic frame / ransom rest point clear previously, I'm not sure why you would think that a human can not be involved in an objective test though, if that is the point you are making now.

Objective is mechanically repeatable to a very high percentage. A good shooter can observe that the bullet went where it the sights said it should go. The groups size could be larger than the perfect group and be a very straight shooting gun. I've given you that data, and you said is not valuable.

The data would be a test group fired from my gun under controlled conditions, which is where this thread started .

I have a Bruce Gray to shoot the best groups possible, but as I originally stated, we would have to do a before and after to obtain the detail you requested. That is cost prohibitive for most folks.

Sounds reasonable, and I could see where a lot of folks would prefer the option of avoiding the cost.

You are asking for something not possible because of the variables involved. Gun A may react differently with brand A bullets than with brand B bullets. It will react differently with your powder/primer/brass/bullet combination than it will anyone else's. Even with factory ammo, no gun will fire exactly the same. What you want is a guarantee that the gun will fire better with an unknown ammo than it does with another unknown ammo. This is simply not logical and is impossible.

What you really need to look at is;

What work are you contracting for.

What parts are you contracting for.

What other services are you contracting for.

The work is new barrel fitting, trigger fitting or polishing, etc.

The parts are the barrel, sear, trigger, etc. The parts often have a warrantee or guarantee. Most companies will do this. A part is not subjective as it either performs as expected or it does not. I don't think that is the issue here.

Other services... This is the part you want but don't appear to be willing to pay for or understand. You want the company to perform a test both before and after and based on said tests, to continue to adjust performance. The problem is, #1 it costs $$$ to have someone keep testing your gun, and #2 it is a used gun. How can someone make a guarantee that they can get it performing any better? (and as I said above, better with what ammo?)

Even in your statement above about a purchasing agent, they will understand when something is out of the control of the person doing the work. Most likely the person doing the work will have this built into the contract or proposal. Their work will perform to such and such a standard, but only to a standard that they can control. I know for a fact they will almost NEVER guarantee a percentage difference because of how many variables most things have, unless the person doing the work can control every variable. This is why it is important for the person requesting the work to be done actually knows what the hell they are talking about and what the potential positives AND negatives are. if you take any project management course through an organization, they will tell you the very same thing I just did.

I think sometimes it is easy to get directed toward winning an argument and away from the logical thinking you would do outside of a debate. One test for this is to look at your text and see if you are pointing out obvious things that the reader would already be aware of.

If you reconsider you will note that what I have asked for (a test group under controlled conditions) is standard and typical for some manufacturers. I think I noted previously that my first XD came with exactly what I am looking for in the box from the factory, I suppose that Springfield decided that it was not cost effective to continue to supply test groups with the new guns and I can understand this given the cost point and the fact that many customers might not see it as significant. My most recent gun purchase (a CZ) also came with a test group that I did not need to ask for.

You might also note that I never expressed any desire for a before and after test. I can understand why a vendor might want to document improvement but the end result is all that I would be interested in.

In a situation where a vendor can not guarantee that they can provide the result that the customer is looking for, this could be made clear prior to any purchase commitment and the customer could decide whether or not they are willing to pay for the process regardless of the results. I agree with your point here completely.

Edited August 19, 2015 by IHAVEGAS

[RJH]

Les Baer, Accuracy X, Bullberry, Spencer rifles, Cooper rifles, Thompson Center, Sako, Tikka, these are some guns that come with an accuracy guarantee. So it can be done. PS, I have no dog in this fight, just surprised that it can be so hard to get someone to give an idea of how well a gun will shoot after they work on it. Obviously, things like using a rest and "such and such" ammo, would be understandable. I don't believe the OP, was looking for a promise that his pistol would shoot into an inch at 50 yards, with any and all ammo, and conditions, only what it would be capable of under Ideal conditions. It still seems very reasonable to me.

Edited August 19, 2015 by RJH

[TyinTX]

In a situation where a vendor can not guarantee that they can provide the result that the customer is looking for, this could be made clear prior to any purchase commitment and the customer could decide whether or not they are willing to pay for the process regardless of the results. I agree with your point here completely.

From watching this thread, it seems that these pistols have a great deal of variability in accuracy when they come out the factory door. Sounds like some guns might not need any smithing to be acceptable and other guns require it for satisfactory performance. What size groups does the pistol shoot under ideal conditions at 25 yards now? And what is your desired group size for the same? Even if a smith can't guarantee results because of variances in the pistols original manufacture, I would think they could help advise a customer on realistic expectations. The Springfield shop did just that by saying usually the custom work cuts group sizes in half. Say for example its a 3" pistol now best case scenario you can expect a 1.5" pistol back. You take the chance of getting a 2.5" pistol so is that chance worth the price. For the what I think is a bargain price on a new barrel and fitting for the best case scenario and still a vast improvement over a poor performing pistol the less ideal scenario I would have the work done. If you are starting with a 1.5" pistol I think I'd leave well enough alone.

Les Baer, Accuracy X, Bullberry, Spencer rifles, Cooper rifles, Thompson Center, Sako, Tikka, these are some guns that come with an accuracy guarantee. So it can be done. PS, I have no dog in this fight, just surprised that it can be so hard to get someone to give an idea of how well a gun will shoot after they work on it. Obviously, things like using a rest and "such and such" ammo, would be understandable. I don't believe the OP, was looking for a promise that his pistol would shoot into an inch at 50 yards, with any and all ammo, and conditions, only what it would be capable of under Ideal conditions. It still seems very reasonable to me.

Over all the guns you mention that come with a guarantee are built from the ground up and cost much more than the Xdm. I think that would make it much easier to offer a guarantee. I own 2 Weatherby Vanguard rifles, one of which came with an accuracy guarantee and one did not. The one is guaranteed to put 3 rounds in under 1 MOA at 100 yards using premium ammo. Both rifles will do this and the non guaranteed rifle cost less but yields almost identical results. Fire 2 more rounds out of the guaranteed rifle for a 5 round group and the group will open up to more than 1 MOA every time. Still an accurate rifle but kind of proves that "Accuracy Guarantees" are kind of worthless most of the time. The guarantee is a marketing tool, good enough to get people to buy, low enough to not cause additional expense once the gun leaves the shop.

[mikeinctown]

RJH, those guns are fitted and are direct from the MFG. They cost thousands. They use ammo that they have selected personally to be consistent with how their product operates and all their testing is likely done using the same ammo. You may get the test target and go through 25,000 rounds yourself and NEVER have a couple shot group as similar to the test, no matter how hard you try. Are you going to turn around and complain because the gun never performed to the expectations you had, or are you willing to consider ammo choice among other variables went into the lack of reproducing results? In a worst case scenario, the MFG works on the pistol and finds something out of spec. They scrap the gun. The guy you are taking your product to, after it has been purchased does not have the same luxury.

The OP in this case wants a guarantee from someone that something will be better, yet the "better" is completely objective and full of variables. He just explained that he never asked for a "before" test, but how can one objectively look at any improvement if there is no before testing? You HAVE to have a baseline metric to compare. Even if Springer was to do a before test, their results would be different than the OP's results because a different person was involved with different ammo and at a different temperature most likely.

The point that we have all been trying to make is that one sends a USED gun in for work with the expectation that a service will be performed. If you want a guarantee that the service was performed then I suppose any gunsmith can offer that. The service is completely independent though of the original hardware and how the original hardware reacts to that service. I haven't ever heard a person say that their trigger job was worse than factory or that the gun didn't cycle smoother with the proper springs. The argument is that someone should be able to guarantee a percentage of improvement over something that is completely unknown. How do you quantify that in any way, shape, or form? IE, HOW do you guarantee what the customer is looking for, when you have so many variables not in your control? The simple answer is that you cannot and personaly I would not trust anyone who says that they can, unless you were spending so much money on the service that you could have just bought a couple new guns instead.

[Garmil]

You can hit a 1" paster at 25 yards with good ammo and a steady hold, but that wasn't what you were asking.

Why say this and contradict every other post you're written in this thread?

After doing a barrel swap/fit do you normally test fire?

If yes what size would the group need to be for you to keep working on it and not sent it to the customer?

[Loves2Shoot]

You can hit a 1" paster at 25 yards with good ammo and a steady hold, but that wasn't what you were asking.

Why say this and contradict every other post you're written in this thread?

After doing a barrel swap/fit do you normally test fire?

If yes what size would the group need to be for you to keep working on it and not sent it to the customer?

A group is not equal to 5 shots at 5 individual points on a target. We have fit many hundreds of barrels on the XD/XDM. If you have a good fit, you can tell before you ever go to the range that it will group well. Yes, we test every gun we work on, and if it doesn't shoot right we fit a new barrel. This is a super rare occurrence. Part of being able to test a pistol is highly reliant on your ability to call you shots and having the bullets go where you saw them go. That is why groups don't mean much, as you will not have a perfect hold on every shot without a mechanical fixture. A well fit Barsto barrel with good ammo will be able to hit the 1" paster IF you do your part.

[RJH]

Mike, you must have not read the part when I said the rest, ammo, etc. would be completely understandable. I think the OP wanted to know PLEASE READ CAREFULLY: "WHAT THE PISTOL WOULD BE CAPABLE OF," not how it would necessarily group in his hands. A new Baer cost about 1800, An XDM comp with a new barrel, trigger, etc. fitted by a smith, probably wouldn't be far off of that. However you would at least have some idea of how the Baer would shoot. I think the OPs main concern was that he might spend a considerable amount of money, with no real recourse, if there was a problem.

Also Mike, some of those guns are only a few hundred dollars

Loves2shoot, I personally think that (hitting the paster) would be an acceptable promise for most, it would for me. Out of curiosity, (not being a smarta** here) did you tell the OP that early on, when you talked on the phone, or only later in this thread.

[Garmil]

You can hit a 1" paster at 25 yards with good ammo and a steady hold, but that wasn't what you were asking.

Why say this and contradict every other post you're written in this thread?

After doing a barrel swap/fit do you normally test fire?

If yes what size would the group need to be for you to keep working on it and not sent it to the customer?

A group is not equal to 5 shots at 5 individual points on a target. We have fit many hundreds of barrels on the XD/XDM. If you have a good fit, you can tell before you ever go to the range that it will group well. Yes, we test every gun we work on, and if it doesn't shoot right we fit a new barrel. This is a super rare occurrence. Part of being able to test a pistol is highly reliant on your ability to call you shots and having the bullets go where you saw them go. That is why groups don't mean much, as you will not have a perfect hold on every shot without a mechanical fixture. A well fit Barsto barrel with good ammo will be able to hit the 1" paster IF you do your part.

I don't doubt that you do good work and deliver accurate guns.

But I can also understand the frustration that some get with the lack of hard numbers.

A guarantee of it will shoot right or it will get a new barrel is pretty vague. Obviously the shooter deciding if it shoots right has some idea of accuracy in relation to inches to make that decision.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Garmil