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Brass Casing Issue at the Range


KSH

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I don't see how it could have fire formed the way it did if it were fully in battery when it fired. I'd suspect it was out of battery.

What OAL are you loading to?

1.090

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Okay, I know XD's are short throated like CZ's but I don't know if they're typically a little shorter, a little longer, or about the same. If I seated the Montana Gold 124gr JHP to 1.09 and chambered one in my CZ, I would have the bullet into the lands, which would cause either set back or, if the bullet didn't set back, it would have a chance of holding the pistol ever so slightly out of battery.

You should do the push test with that bullet and your barrel and see exactly what the max OAL is before the bullet is into the lands. ;-)

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Okay, I know XD's are short throated like CZ's but I don't know if they're typically a little shorter, a little longer, or about the same. If I seated the Montana Gold 124gr JHP to 1.09 and chambered one in my CZ, I would have the bullet into the lands, which would cause either set back or, if the bullet didn't set back, it would have a chance of holding the pistol ever so slightly out of battery.

You should do the push test with that bullet and your barrel and see exactly what the max OAL is before the bullet is into the lands. ;-)

I need 1.150 to not be touching the lands on a very clean barrel

After 100 rounds I need 1.100 to function reliably on a full days shooting.

I then backed it down 1.090 to give myself cushion.

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Well, Ive noticed it here in this forum, its always some other things and NEVER the 9mm CARTRIDGE loaded to MAJOR. Just sayin' ;)

My concern here is not the "reload", but an issue with my XDM

The consensus here is that it is not an issue with my XDM.

It is not an issue with the XDM. The brass would not fire form as shown if it was out of battery. This is the result of an issue with your load, and your reloading knowledge base / techniques.

4.4 is the max load for a 124 loaded out to 1.150. Quickload shows pressure of 28K PSI with 4.5 GR 231 under a 124 MG JHP loaded to 1.15. When you shorten the OAL, pressure increases. This is exacerbated when you are using fast powders and cases without lots of extra volume. Reducing OAL to 1.090 spikes pressure up to 38K PSI - in excess of +P pressures.

My press doesn't hold tolerances +- .001 OAL or .05 GR. I doubt yours does. So if you end up with a load at 1.080 and 4.6 GR (normal variation) Quickload shows pressure goes up in excess of 41K PSI.

You need to use a lighter charge, a longer OAL, or a slower powder. Or this will happen again. You're lucky it was good quality brass and not a piece of AMERC or you'd be picking up parts of the frame and mag from the floor.

Edited by peterthefish
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Well, Ive noticed it here in this forum, its always some other things and NEVER the 9mm CARTRIDGE loaded to MAJOR. Just sayin' ;)

My concern here is not the "reload", but an issue with my XDM

The consensus here is that it is not an issue with my XDM.

It is not an issue with the XDM. The brass would not fire form as shown if it was out of battery. This is the result of an issue with your load, and your reloading knowledge base / techniques.

4.4 is the max load for a 124 loaded out to 1.150. Quickload shows pressure of 28K PSI with 4.5 GR 231 under a 124 MG JHP loaded to 1.15. When you shorten the OAL, pressure increases. This is exacerbated when you are using fast powders and cases without lots of extra volume. Reducing OAL to 1.090 spikes pressure up to 38K PSI - in excess of +P pressures.

My press doesn't hold tolerances +- .001 OAL or .05 GR. I doubt yours does. So if you end up with a load at 1.080 and 4.6 GR (normal variation) Quickload shows pressure goes up in excess of 41K PSI.

You need to use a lighter charge, a longer OAL, or a slower powder. Or this will happen again. You're lucky it was good quality brass and not a piece of AMERC or you'd be picking up parts of the frame and mag from the floor.

Thanks for the info.

Your estimate for what's +p is low. Below is from Wiki.

But either way the easiest way to build some cushion back in is to go back to two separate loads for each 9mm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition

SAAMI specifications for common +P cartridges are as follows:

Cartridge Standard pressure +P pressure Notes 9 mm Luger 35,000 38,500 10% increase .38 Special 17,000 18,500 9% increase .45 ACP 21,000 23,000 9.5% increase .38 Auto 26,500 36,500 38% increase to make .38 Super .45 Colt 14,000 27,500 96.4% increase, For use in certain modern revolvers and lever rifles .257 Roberts 54,000 58,000 7.5% increase

The +P+ designation is not currently used by the SAAMI, but is used by some manufacturers to designate loads that exceed the +P SAAMI specification. One source lists the 9 × 19 mm +P+ loading as having a pressure of 42,000 psi, an 18% increase over the standard pressure of 35,000 psi, and the .38 Special +P+ as 22,000, a 29% increase over the standard pressure.[5]

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I just did a search on "Out of battery Detonation" and a lot of the pictures resemble my casing.

This morning I disassembled my XDM and found nothing wrong.

In 13000 rounds I have replaced various springs a couple of times. This morning I ordered all new springs, pins, striker safety and striker

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Well, Ive noticed it here in this forum, its always some other things and NEVER the 9mm CARTRIDGE loaded to MAJOR. Just sayin' ;)

My concern here is not the "reload", but an issue with my XDM

The consensus here is that it is not an issue with my XDM.

It is not an issue with the XDM. The brass would not fire form as shown if it was out of battery. This is the result of an issue with your load, and your reloading knowledge base / techniques.

4.4 is the max load for a 124 loaded out to 1.150. Quickload shows pressure of 28K PSI with 4.5 GR 231 under a 124 MG JHP loaded to 1.15. When you shorten the OAL, pressure increases. This is exacerbated when you are using fast powders and cases without lots of extra volume. Reducing OAL to 1.090 spikes pressure up to 38K PSI - in excess of +P pressures.

My press doesn't hold tolerances +- .001 OAL or .05 GR. I doubt yours does. So if you end up with a load at 1.080 and 4.6 GR (normal variation) Quickload shows pressure goes up in excess of 41K PSI.

You need to use a lighter charge, a longer OAL, or a slower powder. Or this will happen again. You're lucky it was good quality brass and not a piece of AMERC or you'd be picking up parts of the frame and mag from the floor.

Thanks for the info.

Your estimate for what's +p is low. Below is from Wiki.

But either way the easiest way to build some cushion back in is to go back to two separate loads for each 9mm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition

SAAMI specifications for common +P cartridges are as follows: Cartridge Standard pressure +P pressure Notes 9 mm Luger 35,000 38,500 10% increase .38 Special 17,000 18,500 9% increase .45 ACP 21,000 23,000 9.5% increase .38 Auto 26,500 36,500 38% increase to make .38 Super .45 Colt 14,000 27,500 96.4% increase, For use in certain modern revolvers and lever rifles .257 Roberts 54,000 58,000 7.5% increase

The +P+ designation is not currently used by the SAAMI, but is used by some manufacturers to designate loads that exceed the +P SAAMI specification. One source lists the 9 × 19 mm +P+ loading as having a pressure of 42,000 psi, an 18% increase over the standard pressure of 35,000 psi, and the .38 Special +P+ as 22,000, a 29% increase over the standard pressure.[5]

The spec for +P is in Quickload. I rounded off, but it showed red for pressure, which means it was on the high side of 38K.

There is no spec for +P+, which is why it's a bad thing. No manufacturer can certify a gun for it since there is no spec. 20% above Spec is usually a proof load - brass wouldn't stand up to many loadings like that.

Beyond that, it's possible to work up standard pressure 9mm loads more potent than many +P offerings - the published 147 GR / VV 3N38 9mm Major load comes to mind.

You'll find all sorts of pics from shooters who blame OOB events on their mishaps. Sometimes "tolerance stacking" and other issues are blamed - as if all specs are +- .

Few modern handguns are capable of firing OOB except via a slam fire. The firing pin may drop with the slide retracted 1-2mm, but the barrel is almost always still locked to the slide (ie OOB impossible) well after the disconnector kicks in.

The brass is bulged in places where it is unsupported while the gun is in battery - this points to pressures so high they stressed the brass beyond its elastic limit.

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The brass is bulged in places where it is unsupported while the gun is in battery - this points to pressures so high they stressed the brass beyond its elastic limit.

There way more case damaged than what is normally unsupported.

I will accept that it possible that came out of battery prematurely due to a hot load.

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The brass is bulged in places where it is unsupported while the gun is in battery - this points to pressures so high they stressed the brass beyond its elastic limit.

There way more case damaged than what is normally unsupported.

I will accept that it possible that came out of battery prematurely due to a hot load.

What is normally vs normally unsupported? Drop a loaded round in the barrel separated from the pistol. Any brass you see except the back which is supported by the breech is unsupported. It is also thick enough at those parts that it can withstand pressure within design limits. While feed ramps are the areas which generally leave the brass unsupported near the place where it thins, there are other parts of the case normally unsupported, which appear bulged in your pic. The fact time the case sits nearly flush with the back of the barrel where the breach would hold it makes OOB unlikely.

A gun will also not come OOB early no matter how hot the load (barring one that kabooms the gun). The physics is straightforward, and is demonstrated by any super slow mo video of a 1911 or locked breach gun firing. The cycling (basically) does not begin until the bullet leaves the barrel (at which points pressures have dramatically dropped from peak and could no longer cause the damage you show).

I say basically because some go blow by does start the slide motion before the bullet leaves the barrel, but it's negligible.

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A Glock 17/22 gen 1-3 will actuate its trigger when slightly oob. But I havent experienced any with thousand of 9maj in an Open 17. But its the main reason I stopped using it in Open. I dont want to experience it before I decide to migrate to other platforms but in 38s.

I dont know about XDs but you can test them in dry fire.

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Few modern handguns are capable of firing OOB except via a slam fire. The firing pin may drop with the slide retracted 1-2mm, but the barrel is almost always still locked to the slide (ie OOB impossible)

Peter, if a slide isn't all the way forward, the pistol is out of battery whether or not the barrel is still locked to the slide.

A gun will also not come OOB early no matter how hot the load (barring one that kabooms the gun). The physics is straightforward, and is demonstrated by any super slow mo video of a 1911 or locked breach gun firing. The cycling (basically) does not begin until the bullet leaves the barrel (at which points pressures have dramatically dropped from peak and could no longer cause the damage you show).

You are correct. If a pistol is FULLY in battery, meaning not only is the barrel locked to the slide, but the slide is also all the way forward, the bullet has exited the barrel before the slide and barrel move.

And you're correct. If a pistol is fully in battery, it will not come open early no matter how hot the load is.

And here's where you're wrong. We're not talking about a slide that is FULLY in battery. I just checked 5 pistols on hand. 3 CZs and a Glock will all fire just at the point that the barrel unlocks from the slide. Only my HK VP9 needs to be fully in battery to fire. I knew that to be true before I just checked them, and I know it to be true with every other pistol I own or have owned. Almost all modern pistols will fire out of battery, but before barrel unlocks. Here's the problem, if a pistol fires slightly out of battery right at the point where the barrel unlocks, that barrel WILL come open early. And you have an out of battery detonation.

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Few modern handguns are capable of firing OOB except via a slam fire. The firing pin may drop with the slide retracted 1-2mm, but the barrel is almost always still locked to the slide (ie OOB impossible)

Peter, if a slide isn't all the way forward, the pistol is out of battery whether or not the barrel is still locked to the slide.

A gun will also not come OOB early no matter how hot the load (barring one that kabooms the gun). The physics is straightforward, and is demonstrated by any super slow mo video of a 1911 or locked breach gun firing. The cycling (basically) does not begin until the bullet leaves the barrel (at which points pressures have dramatically dropped from peak and could no longer cause the damage you show).

You are correct. If a pistol is FULLY in battery, meaning not only is the barrel locked to the slide, but the slide is also all the way forward, the bullet has exited the barrel before the slide and barrel move.

And you're correct. If a pistol is fully in battery, it will not come open early no matter how hot the load is.

And here's where you're wrong. We're not talking about a slide that is FULLY in battery. I just checked 5 pistols on hand. 3 CZs and a Glock will all fire just at the point that the barrel unlocks from the slide. Only my HK VP9 needs to be fully in battery to fire. I knew that to be true before I just checked them, and I know it to be true with every other pistol I own or have owned. Almost all modern pistols will fire out of battery, but before barrel unlocks. Here's the problem, if a pistol fires slightly out of battery right at the point where the barrel unlocks, that barrel WILL come open early. And you have an out of battery detonation.

Yours is the common Internet forum definition. If the barrel is locked to the slide, the firearm is in battery and ready to fire. Perhaps not fully in battery, but it is not out.

I have yet to see a modern handgun where the slide can be retracted enough to be even close to the point where the barrel unlocks and still fire, but then I haven't seen them all. The XDM will not fire with the slide retracted to the point that it is unlocked from the barrel, barring a slamfire. I have Glocks and CZs and the same goes for all of them.

Perhaps you could share a picture of your Glock barrel at the point of unlocking and still firing? All of my Gen IIIs and IVs have a very healthy margin. By the time the barrel is tilted enough to unlock, the firing pin is no longer even capable of contacting the primer as the barrel has tilted down from the breach.

Nearly every KB I've seen blamed on the OOB boogeyman is better attributed to poor loading practices similar to those described by the OP, and often much worse.

And a breach unlocking early is not what causes the OOB kaboom boogeyman to visit us - if it was, blowback guns would be pretty dangerous. It is when a round is detonated that is not fully chambered, and which as a result has no case support at the thinnest part of the brass causing a case rupture.

Edited by peterthefish
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My Gk 17 would not ignite the round but a dimple in the primer shows that the striker had contact with the primer albeit a bit off center. Still I consider it unsafe. Using 9 maj, it scared me enought to change to 2011.

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I stuck a piece of a business card (.010" thick) between the breech face and barrel on my P series Sigs and they would not drop the hammer.

I didn't have a Glock handy right now.

P7130653_zpsbuvhzq6b.jpg[/uR

Edit: This one is of 1989 manufacture and I bought it as Military surplus with plenty of wear on it. I shoot it a couple of times a week since I've owned it, so it's not exactly a pristine example being tested.

Edited by TDA
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Thanks all for your reply's

I have learned that my loads are hotter than I thought they were. "Until now they have showed no signs of high pressure"

I have scaled and disassembled all higher weight random rounds and found no issues. I will shoot my remaining stash.

I'm rebuilding my XDM and will be buying two more sets of dies so I can develop individual loads for for each pistol.

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