MikeFoley Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 I had some time on my hands today, so I cleaned the Trojan thoroughly, paying special attention to the breechface and barrel. I then polished the feedramp until I could see my face in it, but not too close to the chamber, and not to change the angle. I oiled it and put it all back together, then proceeded to do my hand cycling test again. I got through the first 47D 5 times with no issues, but the second 47D nosedived the first round twice in a row. This is a different mag than the one that gave me trouble yesterday as I marked it to make sure. I tried to do this slowly and watch the round and it nose dives as soon as the slide impacts it. The 10mm mag did it this time the 3rd time through. I have stopped testing due to the intermittent nature of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 I ran into this nosediving phenomenom a few weeks ago at a steel match. The weekend before the gun ran fine in a USPSA match. But, after the 2nd stage of the local SC match, I was getting the nosedives, too. I took the gun home, cleaned it. I'd already polished the crap out of the feedramp and tuned the extractor. Then I started looking at the mags (Wilson 47D)... What I noticed is that, with a full 9 rds in the mag, rounds 1-4 would nosedive because the case rims were hooking up. 5-9 didn't have that problem because of the decreased spring lift (my guess). I haven't had the gun back out, but I've contemplated trimming a coil off of the spring and seeing what that might do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 I am no gunsmith, but try this. Strip the gun down. Take the frame and put the barrel on like the slide is closed, then take some tape and wrap it around it so it is now one piece. Put the mags in with ammo, and try pushing them into the chamber like the slide would. Remember to push the ammo straight towards the chamber, using a flat piece of something, not thumb pressure at the top of the round. This will show you where the round is hitting the frame ramp area. This is where I would start to see if the ramp angle needs to be changed, as I just got down having the same problem with my new mil spec .45 not feeding my 235gr SWC pin loads. I took out my LB that has the properly executed frame ramp into the barsto barrel, and made my Milspec look the same. It will now feed anything, but still supports the case. Be careful with the .40 ramp though, it is different than the .45. Good luck. DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Never thought about weakening the mag spring, but since they run with less rounds, that kind of makes sense, but I am a sucker for the possibility of and easy fix. I have still only had one nosedive during a COF, but way too many at the LAMR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Ok, my promised update I took my new (to me) Trojan to the range Saturday morning. As I don't have a press, yet, I took some Winchester white box 165s and Rem UMC 180gr stuff - both factory loads. I have exactly one magazine, right now - a Mec-Gar 8 rounder. With three or more rounds in the mag, it does this exact behavior - nose dive into the spot between the frame and the feed ramp - every single time, when loading the first round into the pistol. If I load one or two into the mag, it works every time. I can then load the mag full and the gun runs fine. I had one jam that wasn't one of these first round nose dives, on the Rem stuff. A light tap on the back of the slide put it into battery. Now - the feed ramp on my barrel is relatively rough (probably as it came from the factory). The extractor hasn't been polished appropriately. I suspect the breech face could use some polishing, too. And, I'm not certain I have an STI mag catch (don't they have the STI logo on the right hand side??). I think I'd still have this problem, though - the round isn't touching the extractor at that point - it appears to be hung up on the frame/feed-ramp junction, where there's a noticeable lip. I'll try to get some pics up a little bit later today - sounds like we're all seeing the same thing. I think I can visualize Tripp's answer (weld and recut) and what it's supposed to do - and it *looks* like to this "novice who's not a gunsmith" like it would at least help. But, what do I know.... The scary part was - the WWB rounds suffered bullet setback while being pounded into the frame!!! That's OK, though - 165s are *way* to jumpy in this gun, but they were fun to shoot.... range report later today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Talking about mags, what's the difference between SS mags in 45 vs 40? Is it just the feed lips or is the mag profile slimmer overall? My smith has been building SS guns in 40 and he casually said about using the 45 mags. I should have paid more attention when he explained what he did with those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 AFAIK - the main differences are the feed lip dimensions (.45 is wider) and, at least in the 10 round mags, the .45s are slightly longer. There may be others, as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Update - I spoke w/ Chris at STI today w/ various questions about my pistol. Relevant to this thread - apparently, there have been several changes made to the Trojan in it's lifetime focused around the fit of the ramp and magazine/mag-catch. Originally, they had a relatively flat cut ramp, and the mag catch held the mags about 30 thou higher than 1911 spec - the feeling was that the higher mag position would enhance reliability, and the ramp was cut to match the mag position. Over time, folks complained that their after market mags wouldn't fit/work without filing on them, etc. A decision was made to add a more generous ramp, and, over time, lower the magazine position back to 1911 spec, which is where they build them today. I gathered that newer Trojans probably won't have this sort of feed issue, due to those changes. My pistol was built in May, 2001 - firmly entrenched in the "old" style. I described my feeding problem to Chris (ie, for the most part works fine under fire, but I can't load from a mag w/ more than two rounds in it). He offered to take a look at it under warranty - or suggested sending it to Tripp for mag fit and feed correction, or a little of both. Since I live very close to Georgetown, I'm going to take him up on the offer to look at it under warranty - worst case, I'm away from the pistol for two weeks and nothing changes. It gives me an excuse to drive up there and say, "Hi", anyhow BTW - I agree with others that have reported on customer service from Chris. He seems like a real nice guy, and was very willing to help. I will report back on the results when I get the gun back in a couple of weeks !!! QUICK EDIT - Chris also mentioned to me that there should be little vertical play in the mag once it's seated, by design. Less than 20 thou. I've got 61 thou (.061") in mine. If I load a mag full up, lock the slide back, and hold the mag firmly up in the gun, and then drop the slide w/ the slide release, it works every single time.... Hmmmmm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 I just talked to Virgil Tripp, what a nice guy, and he told me the same thing he told Gear Head about welding additional material onto the ramp and recutting it. After talking to him, and feeling like I am only slightly out of spec on my Trojan(since my rounds don't hit the bottom of the feed ramp, just the middle of it, I tried my mag test again. I just was not yet ready to part with $121 plus shipping to TX. This time, all 7 of my mags worked 5 times each with not even a hint of a problem. The rounds dip slightly then load if you watch them. If you cycle it fast, they don't even dip. Mr. Tripp said he thought selling me mags wouldn't fix the gun, but I may try one STI specific mag for the hell of it, and test it 100 times. If I have to send it to him, I will, because I know he will fix it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rising Sight Posted March 15, 2005 Author Share Posted March 15, 2005 I talked with STI again today and told them about what Mr.Tripp had told me. They told me to send the pistol too them and they would get it working for me. I think I am going to let them give it a try and see how it goes from there. If it comes back and still won't run then Mr.Tripp will be receiving a package from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I looked inside a new Trojan today, it was a .45, but it looked like the feed ramp, frame area around it, and the whole gun were all fitted together with feeding in mind, regardless of where the nose of the bullet was when it left the mag. I assume this fix is possible in a .40. My dilema is whether I want to continue testing mags, or mess up a new hardchrome finish. Since I still feel I am only slightly out of spec, I'm gonna continue testing my gun and different mags. I bought a lighter recoil spring today for it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 The gist that I got from talking to Chris at STI was that the gun was always designed with higher mag position in mind, and the .40 feed ramp was cut to match. The newer pistols are designed for a lower mag position, so they'll be set up differently. I dropped mine off at STI today - they're keeping it for a week or so. They weren't happy with several things, and wanted the time to work on them. I didn't get a whole lot of specifics, but they're going to work out reliability, and mentioned that the springs in the gun were way too heavy (which I thought, too, but I was only going on feel). Stock recoil spring should be 14lbs in a .40 - and all their guns ship w/ a 15lb mainspring, now. My mainspring is in the 19-21lb range. Someone set the gun up very strange - and it flips like crazy because of it.... They might refit my trigger, too, which has a lot of vertical play in it. We'll see I'll udpate next week. I'm glad he concurred w/ my assessment of the springs, and whatnot, though - I was wondering if maybe I'd regressed into "girly man", thinking the slide was a little difficult to operate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 WOW! Mine has a heavy spring in it too, and a lot of vertical slop in the trigger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 They apparently changed how they were cutting the trigger "tunnel" (is that what it's called) in the frame, to help w/ trigger fitting. The older frames don't have this change, so the stock "1 size fits all trigger" tends to have a lot of vertical play. An oversize/gunsmith trigger can be fit, and that will remove the play, in theory.... As far as springs go, you might change 'em up... They used to use heavier mainsprings which they cut 3 coils from to make a roughly 15lb spring. Someone might've swapped yours. Now they use straight 15lb mainsprings. Apparently, no ignition issues w/ them, either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 mentioned that the springs in the gun were way too heavy (which I thought, too, but I was only going on feel). Stock recoil spring should be 14lbs in a .40 - and all their guns ship w/ a 15lb mainspring, now. My mainspring is in the 19-21lb range. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, the "stock" mainspring for a 1911 (5") .40 is 18 pounds and becasue of that, reassembly is a lot harder to manage than a .45 1911. 19-20# would be about right for anew 18# spring. Not sure why somebody thinks the stock spring for a .40 is 14#, but I recommend a shok-buffer if you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Actually, the "stock" mainspring for a 1911 (5") .40 is 18 pounds Actually.... not (in an STI factory gun). From the FAQ at http://www.stiguns.com: Q. What is the recoil spring weight in my gun? A. As follows: ... 5" .40 S&W guns 14 pounds ... and becasue of that, reassembly is a lot harder to manage than a .45 1911. 19-20# would be about right for anew 18# spring. Not sure why somebody thinks the stock spring for a .40 is 14#, but I recommend a shok-buffer if you do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't find it harder to reassemble, either way. It's obviously harder to rack the slide w/ a stiffer recoil spring... Shokbuf already in the gun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Actually, the "stock" mainspring for a 1911 (5") .40 is 18 pounds Actually.... not (in an STI factory gun). From the FAQ at http://www.stiguns.com: Q. What is the recoil spring weight in my gun? A. As follows: ... 5" .40 S&W guns 14 pounds I believe you when you report they said that, I am just not understanding why. That is definitely not the spring any other 1911 maker puts in a 5" .40 and it sure isn't the one in mine. BTW: I have a 9mm 5" STI Trojan and the stock mainspring they ship with that is 12#. I will gurantee you a 180-gr .40 cartridge will give you a whole lot more than 2# of "pop" compared to 9mm.For the record: I also have a .40 STI Longlside which was suppplied new with a 16# spring (slightly less than 18 because of increased slide mass). With a 14# spring in a .40, I could imagine feeding problems becoming more likely because the .40 round is cranky anyway in trying to get it to strip, feed under the extractor, and get it's nose into the throat. Reduce the spring load and you will get some hang feeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I don't find it harder to reassemble, either way. It's obviously harder to rack the slide w/ a stiffer recoil spring... Shokbuf already in the gun.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Then you're stronger than I am. I hated fighting that 18# spring back in. I went to a FLGR with take-down hole just to allow me to remove the rod/spring/bushing as a unit and never have to decompress the stupid spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I guess I have a tough thumb Doesn't seem to be that much harder than I recall a 16# spring being in a .45, but.... You'll find a popular combo for .40s (at least, on this forum) is a 12# recoil spring w/ a buff - so 14# isn't so unheard of. STI puts a 12# spring in their 6" .40s I can't explain why STI chooses to use the springs they do - they use a light mainspring, as well (15lb). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 One point of information I found: http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/dec96letters.html Reader: What’s The 1911’s Standard Spring Weight? Please settle this issue once and for all: Is the standard-weight recoil spring on a Government Model 1911 16 pounds or 18 pounds? By standard weight I mean as it comes from the factory. I’ve heard many conflicting views. -Philip Gilkey Torrance, CA Standard factory recoil spring weight varies somewhat. Military specs don’t actually specify weight. Under Drawing #5013299 they describe the diameter of the music-wire spring (.043 inch), its length (6.55 inch), and the number of coils to be used in making them (30). Put the specs together and do the math and you come up with a nominal weight of 14.9 pounds. In practice, GI pistols ended up with springs of about 16 pounds, which was about right for issue FMJ Ball ammo rated at 800 fps. However, most factory ammo has been loaded to ever higher pressures and velocities over the course of the past couple of decades, and 18-pound springs are now being used by most makes to accommodate the changes. The slide returning to battery with the heavier spring won’t cause noticeable increase in wear for quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I guess I have a tough thumb Doesn't seem to be that much harder than I recall a 16# spring being in a .45, but.... You'll find a popular combo for .40s (at least, on this forum) is a 12# recoil spring w/ a buff - so 14# isn't so unheard of. STI puts a 12# spring in their 6" .40s I can't explain why STI chooses to use the springs they do - they use a light mainspring, as well (15lb). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not sure why they would be running a 5" .40 that light. The "18#" spring in mine is probably closer to 20# and it never short cycles... so there is plenty of rcoil to drive it back. With the .40 being notorious for feed hangs, I would think they'd want to load up the extra energy to get it to cycle more reliably. Oh, well. I'm going to stay with 18# because it cycles perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 From the Wolff website: "COLT 1911 FACTORY RECOIL SPRING NOTES 1. Factory rating for super .38 & 9mm is 14 Lbs. 2. Factory rating in .40 S&W is 19 Lbs. Para Ordnance P-14 and P-16 use the same recoil spring as the Colt 1911 Series. The P-16 has a factory rating of 20 Lbs. " That would explain my sore thumb. My 1640 is not 18# stock, it's 20#. No wonder it felt so stiff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 20# - isn't that the typical stock spring for a 10mm??? Stiff.... My understanding is that the typical reason for jerking around recoil spring weights is to change the feel of the gun. As long as you have enough spring to operate the gun, it's all about feel and operation. A stiffer spring seems to result in more flip (physics) - both up and down. With a lighter spring, you need to consider a buff to avoid accelerated wear, but you get a flatter shooting gun. We'll see - I'll be able to test that empirically, soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 20# - isn't that the typical stock spring for a 10mm??? Stiff....My understanding is that the typical reason for jerking around recoil spring weights is to change the feel of the gun. As long as you have enough spring to operate the gun, it's all about feel and operation. A stiffer spring seems to result in more flip (physics) - both up and down. With a lighter spring, you need to consider a buff to avoid accelerated wear, but you get a flatter shooting gun. We'll see - I'll be able to test that empirically, soon <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are absolutely correct that a stiffer recoil spring gives more muzzle flip. That's because the slide and barrel asssembly act as a recoil absorbing mass which spreads the recoil pulse out over time. A lighter spring allows the slide move more easily and lowers the peak amplitude of the recoil pulse.... at the expense of increasing the pulse when the slide hits the frame going back. The second pulse is usually less than the first, so a lighter spring will give less flip. My point was that in a gun which is having problems getting the round to chamber, I am thinking I want more slide velocity comeing forward (more spring) rather than less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 My point was that in a gun which is having problems getting the round to chamber, I am thinking I want more slide velocity comeing forward (more spring) rather than less. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Point absolutely taken You definitely need enough spring to operated the gun. One might search for ways to make your gun feed more easily, and thus reduce the amount of spring required to allow basic feeding, of course (that's where polishing things, tuning extractors, etc, comes in). Eventually, I'll be loading for this gun, and I'll load longer than factory .40 - that should help, too. We'll see what happens.... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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