StraightSh00ter Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Hello, I am looking to get my first gun and am wondering if there are any 9mm 1911-style firearms that are on the same level of quality, cost, and accuracy of a stock CZ 75B ($550 or less)? I love shooting the CZ at the local range but got to try some Colt 1911's last night; I found the grip angle to be a little more natural, the gun quicker to aim and generally just a bit sexier. My impression from reading is that Rock Island is pretty rough around the edges (I guess I'm a little put-off by castings, which doesn't make this easier); Taurus has forged parts which I'd really like but the reviews (on this forum) aren't the best; Para looks promising ($663 MSRP, last price at Buds $558)??? and the SA Range Officer is highly recommended but too far above my price range. I am excited to work on my own firearms and am OK with upgrading parts in the future. I like 9mm because it's less expensive and I can shoot in the 'bring what you own' class, but I could consider .40SW. I have to be careful with finances since I'm starting from scratch and have to consider magazines, holster, PPE, and reloading equipment, otherwise I'd follow the common suggestion of waiting for a Range Officer. Thanks for reading and any suggestions, -Joe Edited July 4, 2015 by StraightSh00ter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troupe Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 You need to feel the Rock Islands first. There are a lot of opinions on guns and some folks are so set on a particular brands that they feel anything else is junk. Things have been posted many times by people that have no idea , just strong opinions. You would be shocked if you knew how many of the top name 1911 guns are not completely American made. Unless you are shooting a very large amount of rounds , you will not shoot out a cast 1911. Just trying to save you some funds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcreid06 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Are you selling the CZ to fund your 1911? What's games are you going to be playing with the 1911? USPSA idpa? Lots of variables that change how to answer your question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelonassassin Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 From what I have seen about the Rock Islands, they can be nice with a little polish. If you measure twice smooth first you can make a pretty sweet pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Did this with my poor old Taurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The heartache and expense of flushing poor quality parts out of cheap guns is not worth the savings on price of purchase. I'd highly recommend saving a bit longer. The sport is expensive, and going home after the second stage of a match because your gun doesn't run is a huge waste of money. I am not saying you need to buy a Les Baer, but I would consider the RO or similar the bare minimum to start the sport. Your consumables will quickly eclipse the purchase price of the gun. A Spartan (which is similar to the RIA, but with better internals) or an RO would be great choices, and both companies stand behind their guns. If you get the CZ75B and go the production route, you will likely get tired of people telling you that you should have bought an SP01 Shadow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklab Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) I bought a plane 9mm 1911 Rock Island to start shooting steel. As I got a better feel for things I bought a compensated barrel off ebay, a used cmore off a fellow shooter and did a lot of polishing on its parts. It is a very budget build. As of now it has a 2 1/2 pound trigger and shoots rather flat with factory ammo. And I can keep up with the people I shoot with. Next year I do plan on having a STI. But the Rock Island worked good so far. In plane words don't put out too much in your first gun. The more you get into it you will find you're "want list" will change. I know mine did. Edited July 4, 2015 by blacklab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7kings Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I definitely wouldn't write off Rock Island as a good budget 1911. I know they had a spotty reputation in the past, but in the last several years, the positive reviews far outweigh the negatives. I picked one up myself about a year ago and have been really pleased with it. I have the 2011 Tac model with the full length rail, VZ grips, ambi safety, mag well, and fiber optic front sights. It's a great shooter, and accurate to boot. Is it on the same level as a Les Baer, Ed Brown, or Wilson? No way, but then again, it costs a third to a quarter of those pistols. The only thing I didn't care for was the ambi safety - the right-side lever dug into my knuckle every time I pulled the trigger. That was a pretty easy fix, though - I picked up an Ed Brown Tactical Extended Safety, spent a half hour fitting it to the RIA, and now love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Thanks everyone. I just did a search and found that the CZ has a cast frame and forged slide, and apparently many guns are made that way so I'd be fine with that. And I will see if I can find a RIA locally to check out. The CZ I use is a range gun, I don't own anything yet. I like the idea of starting out with a less expensive firearm, but also get the point of spending a little up and a lot on upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) I just read that 1911 style guns can't be used in Production class? Interesting. I forgot to check the list on that one. I forget what the other classes are, but having never shot in contest nor owned a gun yet, production seemed like the right way to go. Edited July 4, 2015 by StraightSh00ter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Single stack is like production but you get to use real guns (1911). The RI/Citidale is a fine gun to start with. I used one to beat many guns costing many times what it did. The "tactical" model will have everything you need to get started. Well it, a magwell, and a trigger job anyway. They are not the finest guns but with a little polishing they are very serviceable and have an good warranty too. (I never needed it). Then when you want a nicer gun, a 500 dollar gun is much easier to sell than a 1000 dollar gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glockster35 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I bought a Citadel 3.5 Officers 1911 single stack a couple of years ago on a whim. I think it was about $450. It needed absolutely no tuning, runs like a raped ape and is actually quite fun to shoot. Now, I would never suggest this pistol for any competition type shooting, but if I found a Citadel 5 incher with similar quality as my Officers, I would have no problem buying it and trying it out in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 Thanks again. I didn't realize there was a division for the 1911 style guns. I don't understand what it means about the ammo size requirement (9mm minimum, but 10mm/.40" major). Does that mean there is a loss of points for shooting 9mm? And I assume its just as fine being a beginner in open stack as it is in production? It seems I have some more learning to do - gun requirements/restrictions, ammo size/scoring, etc. One thing I am seeing is that the Range Officer comes with a holster, mag pouch, and a locking case. I don't know if they are sub-par for contest shooting, but if they are all usable that should be factored into the price. The CZ I was looking at doesn't include any of that, so it compensates a little for the increased price. The RO looks really nice. I will see what I can find locally based on the above recommendations. Maybe some gun brokers have something to look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Thanks again. I didn't realize there was a division for the 1911 style guns. I don't understand what it means about the ammo size requirement (9mm minimum, but 10mm/.40" major). Does that mean there is a loss of points for shooting 9mm? And I assume its just as fine being a beginner in open stack as it is in production? It seems I have some more learning to do - gun requirements/restrictions, ammo size/scoring, etc. One thing I am seeing is that the Range Officer comes with a holster, mag pouch, and a locking case. I don't know if they are sub-par for contest shooting, but if they are all usable that should be factored into the price. The CZ I was looking at doesn't include any of that, so it compensates a little for the increased price. The RO looks really nice. I will see what I can find locally based on the above recommendations. Maybe some gun brokers have something to look at. Not a loss of points per se, but different scoring for minor/major power factor. Rules are here: http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/Feb%202014%20Handgun%20Rules.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 What are some of the key improvements on the Citadel vs a standard RIA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) The metro/American classic/MAC line I've seen more good than bad about and they're reasonably priced. http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/84176/american_classic_ac9g2b_american_classic_ii_9mm_5_9+1_check Edited July 5, 2015 by Garmil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelonassassin Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 A buddy of mine has a Tisas 1911. He doesn't use it for competition but rather as a range gun. It has been 100% reliable and seems to be built well. Maybe that is something to look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbrow10 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I believe that the citadel frames and slides are made by RIA/Armscor. This is also true of the STI Spartan. Or at least used to be. So the manufacturing process is the same for the frame and slides. STI uses all thier own internals and does final fitting themselves. I think that the Citadel is wholly made by Armscor. In 2008, I bought a RIA Tactical. I have over 40,000 rounds through the gun in competition/practice. The only broken part I have experienced is an ejector. I have replaced the barrel and some other minor parts due to my own preferences. I have nothing but good things to say about the gun. Having said that, it appears that the original poster isn't sure about what division he wants to shoot in. For the money and amount of competition, Production is the way to go. If the cost of the gun is the most important, I would recommend a used or police trade in Smith and Wesson M&P, as that grip angle is more like a 1911 than a Glock, which is your other low cost production division option. If you are going to reload, you could get a .40 (cheaper than a 9mm), but most folks are going 9mm in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Production is NOT cheaper than Single Stack. While both have upper ends in the 1000s, with SS you can shoot right along with everyone else with your 450 dollar RI from buds. You buy a "cheap" S&w mp then at $350 and the first thing you have to do is drop a 150 dollar trigger in it, which is is not as good as a trigger job on the factory parts on the RI. While you will probably have more competition in production (depends on the area, pro sucks hind titty around here), you can always look in the overall scores. I have never understood the you should start in production theory if a guy is going to go buy a gun for the sport. Why would anyone suggest a harder recoiling gun with a crappy trigger, I will never get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Well, originally it was a 1911/Browning Hi Power game. Although Jeff Cooper was pretty much 1911 all the way. John Browning did the 1911 and started the High Power, although he passed away before it was finalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbrow10 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 RJH, my comment related to the cost of ammo/components and magazines. I believe that the acquisition cost of the guns is roughly the same (within $100), but good mags and components will be cheaper in the long run. I shoot both divisions and that is what I have found. Your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troupe Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Well said chbrow10. People don't realize that so many 1911's are made elsewhere and then final assembly here in the US. The guns can't be beat for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) I appreciate all the ideas and conversation - it really seems to be a good group that makes up this forum. I think I would be fine shooting in SS as long as it's an ok place for new shooters. I don't expect to be competitive at the beginning; my only concern would be if I'm putting myself at an unnecessary disadvantage or taking away from the others' enjoyment by competing in the wrong division. I was looking at production because I thought that was the only division where people were shooting store-bought firearms. My intent is not to buy a gun specifically for competition since I have no idea how involved I will get. I wanted to get a pistol that generally just appeals to me, but I didn't want to have it live in a case with little use. So I Googled "pistol contest shooting" to find an avenue for regular use which eventually brought me here. If I really get into it (very possible) or just find that I shoot a lot, I'd be perfectly fine dropping a future tax return on a $1200+ gun. Something tells me that my first gun purchase won't be my last! Right now I'm interested in the similarities between STI and RIA/Citadel. If what I'm reading about the frame/slide is true, starting with RIA and making continuous upgrades would be a reasonable choice...if the fit of the frame/slide is good enough to begin with. I know I will love working on pistols (maybe even as much as shooting) - even with the CZ in mind I've poured over parts diagrams, and watched videos demonstrating the different actions, and read a few trigger mod threads. My main concern is the actual finish - if i have to clean up the visible parts of the gun and can't match/restore the finish, it could be a quick deal breaker. Whether or not I need to go there will depend on how it looks and feels in my hands. Obviously the cost of upgrade parts shouldn't be neglected so I've been looking at that, too. I am curious what the key components are in terms of upgrading accuracy. The RIA Rock FS has some nice upgrades over stock for only $30 difference. I'm trying not to lean one way or another yet - I definitely have an appreciation for quality and will try to find a Range Officer, or at least go shoot the SA .45 at the range. There is certainly something to be said for starting out with a quality and respected piece of equipment. I've shot a few rounds through a little XD and was impressed by the performance of such a small firearm. In terms of cost, $450 for a gun sounds like something that can happen relatively soon, and $750 tells me I need to wait. I guess I need to start a list of expenses to really compare. I am living on a tight budget at the moment so the up-front cost is a little bit of a challenge. There are things like 'the extra paycheck' in October and next year's tax return to cover bigger expenses (like reloading), so I could wait until then if I needed to. Pretty soon I'll be in better shape but right now I'm still growing the nest egg. So my current thought is that the SA Range Officer is probably the close in comparison to the CZ in terms of quality and accuracy. It's a little more money for the RO but it does come with a little more in the box. The RIA potentially has the right bones and ability to make it competitive over time, if it has a decent enough feel out of the box for me to get started with. I agree there is only so much I can get from reviews and comments, but I feel like I'm getting some good direction and viable options. Again, thank you. The amount of time and energy I'm spending on this tells me its something I really want to do, so I appreciate you helping me come up with my plan to make it happen. Edited July 5, 2015 by StraightSh00ter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbrow10 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) I'll cut and paste what I posted on a similar thread a few minutes ago, since you are considering the total costs and comparing with the Springer RO. Forgive the redundant comments with what I posted above. I don't think the Springfield RO has an ambi safety, something that I think is important for classifier stages where you transfer the gun to the weak hand. Make sure you get one with a beavertail, especially if you have fat hands like me. Also, make sure you get a bushing barrel version if you want to compete in USPSA single stack. Bull barrels are not legal. I don't think that you can beat a Rock Island for the value. I bought one in 2008 and compete regularly with it. I paid $400 for it back then, I think you can get them all day long for $460 now, which leaves lots of room for all the upgrades mentioned above. And if you stick with the sport but want to sell it later, you can remove the upgrades and sell it instantly for $350, having used the gun for all of $100. Then sell the upgrades as well. Something to thing about is all the upgrades most people put on the gun. Here is what I have on mine, which I think are pretty typical: New front sight: $40 plus install Dawson Ice Magwell (much better than any other magwell and USPSA legal) $100 Extended mag release: $36 8 magazines (I use Tripps) 8 x $40 = $320 (you can find alternatives, but you will need 6-7 minimum. At least a $120, with el cheapos) $176 before the magazines, probably $300, before shipping for all that. If you want to spend no more than $900 out the door, then that leaves a gun that is no more than $600. A Rock Island Tactical at list price of $460, plus $300, leaves you $140 for reloading components, or an adjustable rear sight (something the RO does have). My two cents. Good luck with whatever you decide. Edited July 5, 2015 by chbrow10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbrow10 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Since you asked about the finish, I'll make two observations based on my use of my gun in my holster: 1) Everyone uses kydex holsters in competition and kydex is rough on gun finishes. My RIA is parkerized and it has quite a bit of holster wear. The same is true of my son's Glock 34 (with has the Tenifer finish) and my other son's CZ SP-01 Shadow, although the CZ is fairing the best of the three. I believe that any competition gun with a parkerized or blued finish will show holster wear over time. The magwells will also take a beating, unless you get the Dawson Ice magwell and you can change out the insert. 2) Any tool marks that are on my RIA are internal. Like the underneath of the slide and inside the frame. There are no visible tool marks or finishing flaws on the exterior of the gun. Hope this helps. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now