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Rimfire Start position


pmd

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This is being discussed in the Showdown topic right now.

Rather than discuss there thought i'd start a new thread..

I personally think the start position should be a point (marker, disc, spot of paint, etc.) on the ground - not 2 feet in the air.

It makes setup easier and more consistent from range to range.

From the SCSA website:

Section 5 - 2.3

In the Rimfire Match, there will be an aiming point (flag or sign) centered downrange directly in front of each shooters box approximately 10’ away and 2’ high. Where multiple boxes are on a stage such as in Outer Limits, the flag will be placed in the center of the array. The competitor while waiting for the start signal, must be pointing/aiming their gun at the flag/sign with the finger off the trigger.

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I think 2' high is ridiculous...we use 8" cones on the ground, but then again, we are not SCSA affiliated. It kind of reminds me about some of the USPSA classifiers out there that have non-standard props instead of just walls, barricades, and shooting boxes.

I wish USPSA would review classifiers and make the props standard across the board.

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As one of the starters of this thread in Showdown I agree I would like to see the use of a cone that is not more than 1 foot in height. A few weeks ago at the Tier 3 at Old Bridge, NJ they used just about full sized traffic cones. I don't know about others and I did not watch KC, Dave or any others but it felt uncomfortable to me that I could game the stage with just about any firearm angle I wanted. I kept with my normal 45 degree angle myself although I may start changing that until they decide to look at the issue.

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I kept with my normal 45 degree angle myself although I may start changing that until they decide to look at the issue.

Where are you getting the "45 degree" thing from? There's a designated aiming point. The "aiming point (flag or sign)... 10’ away and 2’ high", or the frequently incorrect paint splotch. For most people "45 degrees" would have the muzzle pointed at a spot on the ground about 5 feet from their toes. Something that I suppose the RO should be telling you is incorrect.

A paint splotch, the equivalent to aiming at the top of a 10’ away and 2’ high flag or sign, needs to be about 16 feet out...

Edited by Tom E
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We use a tennis ball on a spike in the ground 10' out from the shooter's box. It seems to work well. I shoot other matches that use the smaller 8" to 10" cones and that works as well. None are sanctioned though. A 2' high flag seems a bit much. Where are you suppose to start? At the ground where the flag is posted or at the top of the flag?

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We nail down a target stand meant to hold a USPSA target, then put a 2' slat in one of the sides. The top 3" of the slat is painted bright orange and that is the aiming point. Guess we should make a sign or flag to be in accordance with the rules.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

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hmmmm ..... as our SC MD I guess I need to think about this. Right now we only use those small 8"-10" cones 10' out so I'll need to see about a flag or something that is 24" high ..... at the US Steel Nationals there was a C-more banner located 10' in front of each stage & you were required to be pointing at the center red dot of their logo ... don't really know the height but it doesn't look like it was 24" off the ground ......

post-32005-0-26939500-1435412014_thumb.j

Edited by Nimitz
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If You are shooting an outlaw match you can do whatever you want....but when shooting a sanctioned match why is it so hard to follow the rules.

Photoracer the match at old bridge NJ is not a SCSA sanctioned match. SC is foolish to even deal with this guy. He adds unsanctioned stages (zig zag) and skips stages he doesn't want to use, the stages are not set up correctly, you can't use a cone over 24". This guy doesn't report scores yet he calls it a regional Tier 3 match. and SCSA even advertises it for him. It is not a Steel Challenge match.

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That's an improper starting flag/sign (the one that Nimitz posted). The top may be 2' off the ground but there's no way the center of the C-more dot is 2' off the ground as required by the rules. I will take a picture of the stand we used today at our NSSF match tomorrow. We used a standard target stand and put a cut piece of 2x4 in it. I aimed at the top of the 2x4. I hope the other rimfire shooters aimed at the bottom of it :).

Check out this video I found of the 2013 World Shoot. Pause it at 22 second. 2 feet? I'm staying no. Also check out the starting position and shooting done by the shooter around the 58/59 second mark.

Now check out the video from 2014 World shoot. That looks like 2+ feet to me.

Edited by ZackJones
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Zach, in your last video, the competitor at around the 1 minute mark is starting with his finger on the trigger. Pardon my ignorance, but does the World Shoot follow SCSA rules? If it does, that competitor is breaking rule 5.4

Edited by jdphotoguy
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Zach, in your last video, the competitor at around the 1 minute mark is starting with his finger on the trigger. Pardon my ignorance, but does the World Shoot follow SCSA rules? If it does, that competitor is breaking rule 5.4

His finger is in the trigger guard which is legal. On the trigger? Hard to judge. I suspect you're "off the trigger" if the gun doesn't go bang when it shouldn't.

The alternate view is that they screwed up the wording. When you get an RO who doesn't like it that the rules no longer say "outside the trigger guard" and wants to nit pick, you hold up THE FINGER and explain that "THE FINGER" wasn't "on the trigger" or even inside the trigger guard...

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Zach, in your last video, the competitor at around the 1 minute mark is starting with his finger on the trigger. Pardon my ignorance, but does the World Shoot follow SCSA rules? If it does, that competitor is breaking rule 5.4

His finger is in the trigger guard which is legal. On the trigger? Hard to judge. I suspect you're "off the trigger" if the gun doesn't go bang when it shouldn't.

The alternate view is that they screwed up the wording. When you get an RO who doesn't like it that the rules no longer say "outside the trigger guard" and wants to nit pick, you hold up THE FINGER and explain that "THE FINGER" wasn't "on the trigger" or even inside the trigger guard...

Guess I've been around USPSA to long, were your finger has to be outside the trigger guard.

When I shoot Rimfire, my finger is laying down the frame, guess I'll start gaming things and have my finger inside the guard, but off the trigger., like the dude in the video.

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USPSA doesn't have rimfires with low ready starts. In SCSA and NSSF Rimfire Challenge, except for the low ready start, "trigger finger outside" still applies as usual..

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Zach, in your last video, the competitor at around the 1 minute mark is starting with his finger on the trigger. Pardon my ignorance, but does the World Shoot follow SCSA rules? If it does, that competitor is breaking rule 5.4

It sure looks that way to me as well but without being there and seeing it myself I can't say for sure.

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It's really hard to tell without being there. My finger is still bent, and just outside of the trigger guard. Not up on the side of the gun. If you were to see a picture or video you would probably say it was in the trigger guard, but when you actually look at it, it's not.

Pictures can be deceiving.

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as for the 2' start flag i think i'm going to get some 1/8" dowels from lowes, attach one of those small colored survey flags on those thin wires you get at Lowes to it and then figure out a way to poke a hole in the top of the small cones we currently use and stick the dowel w/flag in it set at 24" high. I don't want to be pounding things into the ground every match as it's usually like concrete in the summer ...

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as for the 2' start flag i think i'm going to get some 1/8" dowels from lowes, attach one of those small colored survey flags on those thin wires you get at Lowes to it and then figure out a way to poke a hole in the top of the small cones we currently use and stick the dowel w/flag in it set at 24" high. I don't want to be pounding things into the ground every match as it's usually like concrete in the summer ...

This is what we used at our USPSA Steel Challenge match yesterday and our NSSF Rimfire Challenge match today. It worked well. BTW if anyone shoots NSSF at your club try this stage. It was seriously fun to shoot.

post-50397-0-38120300-1435539674_thumb.j

Edited by ZackJones
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NSSF doesn't prohibit one from starting with their finger on the trigger. Neither rule 7.1.1 nor 7.1.2 address finger placement. I still start both matches with my finger outside. That is safer, IMO.

1.0 General Safety

1.0.4 Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

When the RO asks "Are you ready?" Aren't you expected to be "ready to shoot"?

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This is what we used at our USPSA Steel Challenge match yesterday and our NSSF Rimfire Challenge match today. It worked well. BTW if anyone shoots NSSF at your club try this stage. It was seriously fun to shoot.

attachicon.gifIMG_0427.JPG

Looks good to me and a lot better than the paint splotch on the ground I see all too often.

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