Pasley Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think that if USPSA starts to actually take an interest in Steel Challenge they should consider dropping, or changing, Outer Limits. My reasons are; A lot of clubs don't have enough space to set it up. At the club I shoot at we have competitors who are so old and crippled up they can barely get to the line with their canes and walkers (no exaggeration). It is the stage anybody would pick as "the one that doesn't fit". Requires movement on the clock and there are only four strings of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottlep Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Since it isn't used for classifications it really doesn't have to be used in every match. Set up the other 7 and throw in an outlaw stage to replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I also think there needs to be an alternate stage for Speed Option. If a club couldn't setup Outer Limits due to bay limitations they couldn't setup Speed Option for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 I actually like the longer range targets and would kind of like to have a 50 yard shot but I know that would be even more troublesome for some ranges. The movement on the clock and the four strings of fire are what rubs a raw spot on my OCD. Showdown does also but to a lesser extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I actually like the longer range targets and would kind of like to have a 50 yard shot but I know that would be even more troublesome for some ranges. The movement on the clock and the four strings of fire are what rubs a raw spot on my OCD. Showdown does also but to a lesser extent. We couldn't support a 50 yard shot. 35 pushes us to the limit and we currently only have 1 bay that we can use for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drysideshooter Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I have to wonder if USPSA does actually start supporting SC if it will be too little, too late? In my neck of the woods (the USPSA headquarters back yard) the clubs have mostly switched to ISSA steel shooting, and it seems to be gaining momentum. I agree about Outer Limits being more challenging for some of the more senior shooters. It's cool that they only shoot 4 strings so it doesn't dominate the scoring. Shot an 8 stage ISSA match yesterday. It was actually really cool to not have any idea what 8 stages might be set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottlep Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Go check the USPSA Facebook page. They actually promoted some SCSA matches today. Hopefully Satan has his parka and mukluks on, because hell must be freezing over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drysideshooter Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Go check the USPSA Facebook page. They actually promoted some SCSA matches today. Hopefully Satan has his parka and mukluks on, because hell must be freezing over No doubt! I called them a while back and told them none of the clubs in my area or surrounding areas were shooting SC anymore. I got a message back on how to use the search function and a list of clubs. I had already contacted all of the clubs on the list and none of them were holding SC matches any more. You would think they would know which clubs are holding matches, at least by the shooter fees being sent in or something. It seems obvious to me that SC was like a step child they didn't want to bother with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree .... Outer Limits is one of the most important stages in a match because it tests skills the others don't. Steel Challenge was not created as a sport just for old, crippled people who can't move. In fact it was created to enable USPSA shooters to learn how to shoot steel faster. We don't do this for USPSA stage design and we shouldn't do it for SC. At nationals this year one of my squad mates was in a wheel chair ... he shot Outer Limits just fine .... As far as the bay req'ts I get that 35 yd targets can be a problem for a lot of clubs but that's why at a level 1 match you don't need to shoot all 8 stages. Also neither of these is used for classification purposes so you don't get penalitized there either if your club can't put up these stages. For a while we had to angle the setup of Speed Option at my club to make 35 yds until the back berm eroded enough to make it staright on. If you want to put on Tier II or Tier II matches you need to have the requisite space, no different then if you want to setup a level II or III USPSA match but only have 5 bays ... going to be tough to do but you can still offer local level 1 matches. The way to get more folks interetsed in SC is not to change the stages but start promoting it better and get the new classification system up and going. Setup state championship matches & sectional matches & area championships and get more shooters out to shoot ... Edited June 8, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trodrig Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree .... Outer Limits is one of the most important stages in a match because it tests skills the others don't. Steel Challenge was not created as a sport just for old, crippled people who can't move. In fact it was created to enable USPSA shooters to learn how to shoot steel faster. We don't do this for USPSA stage design and we shouldn't do it for SC. At nationals this year one of my squad mates was in a wheel chair ... he shot Outer Limits just fine .... As far as the bay req'ts I get that 35 yd targets can be a problem for a lot of clubs but that's why at a level 1 match you don't need to shoot all 8 stages. Also neither of these is used for classification purposes so you don't get penalitized there either if your club can't put up these stages. For a while we had to angle the setup of Speed Option at my club to make 35 yds until the back berm eroded enough to make it staright on. If you want to put on Tier II or Tier II matches you need to have the requisite space, no different then if you want to setup a level II or III USPSA match but only have 5 bays ... going to be tough to do but you can still offer local level 1 matches. The way to get more folks interetsed in SC is not to change the stages but start promoting it better and get the new classification system up and going. Setup state championship matches & sectional matches & area championships and get more shooters out to shoot ... Agreed 100%!! There is nothing wrong with Outer Limits and nothing wrong with Steel Challenge in general....except for what USPSA has done with it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree .... Outer Limits is one of the most important stages in a match because it tests skills the others don't. I can get behind this also. Make more stages that require movement or otherwise tests skills. Make a mandatory reload for instance. My problem is this one stage that doesn't fit the others as SC is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoracer Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) I just shot a Tier 3 match this weekend in which they did not have Outer Limits either (they used the old Zig-Zag instead). Didn't stop KC, Dave O, Dave S and others from coming to shoot it. As a 67 yo with bad knees I don't mind not having it, but I do plan on setting it up on my farm this year to practice none the less. My feeling is they should have a groups of about 4 stages that produce similar times that can be used interchangeably for the 2 non-classifier stages. A lot of clubs that faded away from SC did so for one reason because many shooters got bored shooting the same thing every time so attendence got down (and a lot of clubs felt that the SCSA was not helping to grow the sport, they were just collecting sanction fees). Edited June 9, 2015 by photoracer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Outer Limits is one of the most important stages in a match because it tests skills the others don't. Like what? Testing how fast you can run between boxes? Sorry but I dis-agree. Isn't Steel Challenge supposed to be about shooting steel fast? Then they have a stage that adds 10 seconds to my total time because I don't limp fast enough? No amount of practice or shooting skill will make that up. My solution is to shoot NSSF Rimfire Challenge matches and give shooting Steel Challenge less priority than bathing my cat... I see that for the NSSF Rimfire Challenge "World Championship" they will NOT use any steel challenge stages or replicas of them so we'll have an even playing field with stages new to everyone. A move I endorse. I'm entered and spending my bucks there, and at the other NSSF Rimfire Challenge matches I can make and NOT shooting Steel Challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 There are provisions in steel challenge for competitors that can't shoot it as designed. You appear to be down on Steel Challenge because of one stage. I do like that NSSF has no predefined stages. That allows us to have some very fun matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drysideshooter Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 There are provisions in steel challenge for competitors that can't shoot it as designed. You appear to be down on Steel Challenge because of one stage. I do like that NSSF has no predefined stages. That allows us to have some very fun matches. Clubs shooting the ISSA format don't have predefined stages either and are open to guns other than just rimfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Outer Limits is one of the most important stages in a match because it tests skills the others don't.Like what? Testing how fast you can run between boxes? Sorry but I dis-agree. Isn't Steel Challenge supposed to be about shooting steel fast? Then they have a stage that adds 10 seconds to my total time because I don't limp fast enough? No amount of practice or shooting skill will make that up. My solution is to shoot NSSF Rimfire Challenge matches and give shooting Steel Challenge less priority than bathing my cat...I see that for the NSSF Rimfire Challenge "World Championship" they will NOT use any steel challenge stages or replicas of them so we'll have an even playing field with stages new to everyone. A move I endorse. I'm entered and spending my bucks there, and at the other NSSF Rimfire Challenge matches I can make and NOT shooting Steel Challenge. It tests your basic practical shooting movement skills .... how well you can execute exiting shooting positions and how well you can execute entering shooting positions ... things BTW that most practical shooters are horrible at. It also tests your "basic movement between position" skills ... do you drop your gun as you exit a position like 95% of shooters do & then have to bring it bring up on target? Do you understand the techniques for exploding out of a position after calling your shot good & pivoting off the correct foot to get to the next box as fast as possible and then execute a decelerating entry correctly with the appropriate foot so that before your 2nd foot is planted in the box you're already shooting the 2nd target? There is so much more going on in Outer Limits then just "how fast you run" that is is a defining stage in a match ... and yes, it is about shooting steel fast but nobody ever said it was about shooting steel fast & never move ... if you want no movement in your shooting I suggest you take up bullseye shooting ....BTW, if you attend my matches you'll be very well prepared for any Tier II or III match you shoot as I include it in 10 of the 12 matches a year ... Edited June 10, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) I can shoot Outer Limits "as designed", it just ain't pretty, and it's a match killer. Guys who move well think Outer Limits is great, it puts "out of contention" anyone who doesn't move well regardless of how good their technique is. Your "insights" remind me of the single stack / wide body hi-cap transition in USPSA. Yes, I was shooting USPSA way back then. I fondly remember the rationalizing that with "proper re-loading technique" the single stacks were competitive with the high capacity guns. We know how that turned out... When I want to shoot "run and gun" I'll shoot USPSA. Otherwise NSSF and any Bowling Pin shoot I can find is where my dollars are going to be spent. The PSA Shootout and a few others are on my bucket list too. You don't have to shoot bullseye (which I dislike) to not need to run to place well. Edited June 10, 2015 by Tom E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 unfortunately, part of having good technique in practical shooting is the ability to move well. This is not necessarily the same as moving 'fast', its economy of movement not simply speed. I'm 55 yrs old and certainly not in the greatest of shape but I shoot Outer Limits in under 5 secs in rimfire and around 5.5 secs in open. Plenty of competitors 20 yrs my junior don't even come close even though they would destroy me in a sprint but have not learned how to move in practical shooting terms. Steel Challenge is part of the practical shooting disciplines and therfore movement should always be a part of it. I just don't like the sport being characterized as something for only "old & crippled" people who can't shoot USPSA because of 'movement' issues .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 If USPSA actually takes an interest in SC I'd like to see them bring back some (or most) of the retired stages like zig-zag, double trouble, flying M, etc., or at least create a half dozen or so new stages. It would give clubs with limited bays more options, and add some much needed freshness to the current eight stages we have been shooting quite a while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoracer Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I agree. I went thru the IDPA, then USPSA and Steel Challenge, and finally 3-gun stages. Now my knees are basically crap. I shoot SC in an average of about 10 seconds per stage, a couple under that and the rest over. Except for Outer Limits where I am lucky to get under 20 seconds. And its not because I don't know how to move as I was a sprinter in HS. Now the idea of exploding out of the box has multiple explanations and not all of then are good. I was very happy that the match I was at left OL out in favor of a retired stage. Ditto on NSSF Rimfire as its where I spend most of my time these days when out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I would not be against adding some new stages or even return some retired ones. I even wouldn't mind adding things like mandatory reloads for certain stages. However, Steel Challenge is not USPSA and there should be no requirement to be USPSA-like. Having said that I also think removing all movement just adds crediability to the notion that Steel Challenge is only for old, crippled people which will not put us on the path to grow the sport. We need to encourge young, new shooters to try out steel challenge if we expect to grow it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Your "insights" remind me of the single stack / wide body hi-cap transition in USPSA. Yes, I was shooting USPSA way back then. I fondly remember the rationalizing that with "proper re-loading technique" the single stacks were competitive with the high capacity guns. We know how that turned out... Sounds much like 8 shot revolvers and 6 still being just fine. Edited June 11, 2015 by seanc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoracer Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Well of all the juniors I know few of them shoot Steel Challenge. That includes some of the really good ones in my area. At Peacemaker we have USPSA and SC matches right next to each other on the same Saturday. Most shooters are older except a few juniors. Most either shoot SC in the AM as a warmup for USPSA in the afternoon or shoot USPSA in the morning and shoot SC in the afternoon because they want to do as much shooting as they can while they are here. Most of the juniors who show up just shoot USPSA. Sometimes both AM and PM. So your ideas about growing the sport might be spot on but someone needs to come up with a plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 We need to encourge young, new shooters to try out steel challenge if we expect to grow it ... Seems to be what NSSF is (successfully) doing with what was the Ruger Rimfire Challenge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drysideshooter Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Steel Challenge and ISSA steel shooting are pretty ideal ways to introduce younger shooters to the shooting sports, in my opinion. They can shoot rimfire if they want. They can learn the basic range commands and how to handle a firearm safely. Things like the 180deg rule apply to steel shooting too. By starting with rimfire they don't need to worry about a draw. Learn to handle a firearm safely, learn to shoot more quickly, unload and show clear, all of those important skills. When they're ready they can move up to centerfire and learn to draw, move, reload, etc.,they can shoot a 22 rifle or pistol caliber carbine. After gaining some valuable experience they can start shooting USPSA, 3 gun, IDPA, anything that draws their interest. My own son shot his first USPSA match when he was 7 or 8 years old and RO's almost all commented on his safe gun handling. He honed that shooting steel first. Of all the shooting sports he still enjoys steel shooting the most, particularly ISSA because of the stage variety. It's not just for old folks with bad knees. At some of our local area matches we get some top national 3 gun competitors and plenty of M and GM USPSA shooters. Speed steel is fun. It just is. Edited June 11, 2015 by drysideshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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