Onepocket Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 It would be cool if a gun company would put up a bounty at a big match. Get five tries for a hundred. Lowest run wins half the pot other half goes to charity. Sub one second run wins a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I think that's a cool idea with a whole lot of different challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 Back when I was playing alot of pool they did something similar. Any player in one of their sanctioned 9-ball matches string 10 racks together wins a Million. Earl Strickland soon put 13 racks together. They never offered that again and I'm not sure he got paid the whole amount. If I win the powerball I will set it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I don't think there is anyone capable of running .08 splits with a production gun. I'd be very surprised to see it. I've only shot one at .08 in my life. I can't think of a reason a production gun can't have a trigger just as nice as a limited open gun after the first shot, and on the first shot you can be starting the da pull well before the sights are on target. obviously at .15-.16 i'm nowhere near the limits of speed, but i shoot identical splits with my 1911, limited gun and my production gun (cz75b with some mild trigger work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I don't know, I guess it's possible, but how many .10 splits have you ever seen someone do with a production gun? I can't think of any off the top of my head. I usually hit at least one .10 per match with my open gun and can do it with regularity in practice, but I've never hit a .10 with a production gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) I don't know, I guess it's possible, but how many .10 splits have you ever seen someone do with a production gun? I can't think of any off the top of my head. I usually hit at least one .10 per match with my open gun and can do it with regularity in practice, but I've never hit a .10 with a production gun. I don't really focus too much on splits, but i've seen some pretty fast ones. Not sure when RO-ing big matchs that I've noticed a huge difference between top production guys and top open or limited guys. It also usually seems like the guys with the very fastest splits are not winning the match. not sure what that means. it may also make a difference that top production shooters can not afford charlies, so they are getting a teensy bit more sight picture before breaking the shot, or the lighter (except tanfo, lol) guns just move around a bit more. What gun do you use for production, Jake? How good is the trigger? Edited February 11, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) I don't know, I guess it's possible, but how many .10 splits have you ever seen someone do with a production gun? I can't think of any off the top of my head. I usually hit at least one .10 per match with my open gun and can do it with regularity in practice, but I've never hit a .10 with a production gun. I don't really focus too much on splits, but i've seen some pretty fast ones. Not sure when RO-ing big matchs that I've noticed a huge difference between top production guys and top open or limited guys. It also usually seems like the guys with the very fastest splits are not winning the match. not sure what that means. it may also make a difference that top production shooters can not afford charlies, so they are getting a teensy bit more sight picture before breaking the shot, or the lighter (except tanfo, lol) guns just move around a bit more. What gun do you use for production, Jake? How good is the trigger? Well I don't have the data to support it, but my guess is if you paid attention to (checked the timer between runs) splits from top shooters in each division you would notice a difference. If you want to have a discussion about how important splits are to match performance we can do that (the importance differs per division), but that really isn't very pertinent to what this thread is about I don't even own a production gun that I'd take to competition right now, I did shoot an elite 2 when I shot production. I've played around with some people's cz's and glocks that had good triggers, never fooled around with a stock 2. It's rare for me to shoot under a .13 with a production gun. That could partially be because I don't shoot them much, but I don't really think so. I can adjust from platform to platform very easily. Edited February 11, 2016 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Well I don't have the data to support it, but my guess is if you paid attention to (checked the timer between runs) splits from top shooters in each division you would notice a difference. If you want to have a discussion about how important splits are to match performance we can do that (the importance differs per division), but that really isn't very pertinent to what this thread is about reasonable point... i also don't have data, just a fuzzy intuition which may well be wrong. I don't think we need to discuss the importance of splits because I only know about my skill level and my division. at the national level in open, I'm sure it is quite different. I figure I'll know when those hundredths are holding me back and start working on them intead of the tenths and full seconds that are available to me by improving in other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 Back to the Drill. Would the times improve if their was a large enough bounty placed on it? What other drills would a 50/50 Calcutta be fun to have? Blake drill? I understand splits don't win matches but that's not the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I mean if you said shoot a bill drill under 1 second and win a million dollars, yeah I think times in general would improve but I still don't know if anyone would be able to claim it. I think you could do this with just about any drill, you just have to be able to accurately determine a score that is close to the limit of human function for that drill. To name some off the top of my head, el prez, plate rack, texas star, any classifier. The classifier thing could be cool if we possessed the ability to know what the highest hit factor ever recorded on a submitted classifier score was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Well I don't have the data to support it, but my guess is if you paid attention to (checked the timer between runs) splits from top shooters in each division you would notice a difference. If you want to have a discussion about how important splits are to match performance we can do that (the importance differs per division), but that really isn't very pertinent to what this thread is about reasonable point... i also don't have data, just a fuzzy intuition which may well be wrong. I don't think we need to discuss the importance of splits because I only know about my skill level and my division. at the national level in open, I'm sure it is quite different. I figure I'll know when those hundredths are holding me back and start working on them intead of the tenths and full seconds that are available to me by improving in other areas. I wouldn't worry about it too much. You can win open nats with .20 splits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I mean if you said shoot a bill drill under 1 second and win a million dollars, yeah I think times in general would improve but I still don't know if anyone would be able to claim it. I think you could do this with just about any drill, you just have to be able to accurately determine a score that is close to the limit of human function for that drill. To name some off the top of my head, el prez, plate rack, texas star, any classifier. The classifier thing could be cool if we possessed the ability to know what the highest hit factor ever recorded on a submitted classifier score was. I agree. I just don't think a sub 1 second BD is doable on command. If some of the fastest guys on the trigger out there like Blake ran it over and over and over he might luck into one out of a thousand tries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Well I don't have the data to support it, but my guess is if you paid attention to (checked the timer between runs) splits from top shooters in each division you would notice a difference. If you want to have a discussion about how important splits are to match performance we can do that (the importance differs per division), but that really isn't very pertinent to what this thread is about reasonable point... i also don't have data, just a fuzzy intuition which may well be wrong. I don't think we need to discuss the importance of splits because I only know about my skill level and my division. at the national level in open, I'm sure it is quite different. I figure I'll know when those hundredths are holding me back and start working on them intead of the tenths and full seconds that are available to me by improving in other areas. I wouldn't worry about it too much. You can win open nats with .20 splits. I don't agree with that statement one bit. Any division other than open, sure. I suppose we should define what you mean by that though. If you average a .20 on every split in the match, then sure. If you're shooting .20 splits on open targets under 7 yards, no way. I have a bunch of match video from this year, I should tally everything up and see what my average split was this past year. Edited February 12, 2016 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Well I don't have the data to support it, but my guess is if you paid attention to (checked the timer between runs) splits from top shooters in each division you would notice a difference. If you want to have a discussion about how important splits are to match performance we can do that (the importance differs per division), but that really isn't very pertinent to what this thread is about reasonable point... i also don't have data, just a fuzzy intuition which may well be wrong. I don't think we need to discuss the importance of splits because I only know about my skill level and my division. at the national level in open, I'm sure it is quite different. I figure I'll know when those hundredths are holding me back and start working on them intead of the tenths and full seconds that are available to me by improving in other areas. I wouldn't worry about it too much. You can win open nats with .20 splits. I don't agree with that statement one bit. Any division other than open, sure. I suppose we should define what you mean by that though. If you average a .20 on every split in the match, then sure, that would actually be incredible. If you're shooting .20 splits on open targets under 7 yards, no way. I have a bunch of match video from this year, I should tally everything up and see what my average split was this past year. I'm not very good at math (majored in applied math and statistics), but it seems to me the number of open targets under 7 yards at open nationals is pretty minimal. If there were 20 of them (which seems like a lot) and you did .20 splits on all of them, you would only lose 1 second to the guy who did .15 on all of them. That's around 1/4 of the actual difference between tilley and max last year. Like I said, watching all the top guys at 3 straight nationals, it doesn't seem to me like the overall winners in ANY division had the fastest splits in that division. They seemed to shoot more accurately, and shoot sooner, and make fewer errors, and have less wasted movement. I also suspect that some of the guys with crazy fast splits were actually shooting faster than they could see. But I admit I don't know enough or care enough about open guns to argue as anything other than a devil's advocate. I just think that for most people there is WAY lower hanging fruit than their trigger speed, so it's not worth investing very much time in just being able run the gun fast. Of course, when it comes down to the influence of grip technique on splits, as in holding the gun steadier so it returns to a good sight picture more quickly (or perhaps just stays in a good sight picture with an open gun), any gains there should translate to most any difficulty of target. Edited February 12, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Well I don't have the data to support it, but my guess is if you paid attention to (checked the timer between runs) splits from top shooters in each division you would notice a difference. If you want to have a discussion about how important splits are to match performance we can do that (the importance differs per division), but that really isn't very pertinent to what this thread is about reasonable point... i also don't have data, just a fuzzy intuition which may well be wrong. I don't think we need to discuss the importance of splits because I only know about my skill level and my division. at the national level in open, I'm sure it is quite different. I figure I'll know when those hundredths are holding me back and start working on them intead of the tenths and full seconds that are available to me by improving in other areas. I wouldn't worry about it too much. You can win open nats with .20 splits. I don't agree with that statement one bit. Any division other than open, sure. I suppose we should define what you mean by that though. If you average a .20 on every split in the match, then sure, that would actually be incredible. If you're shooting .20 splits on open targets under 7 yards, no way. I have a bunch of match video from this year, I should tally everything up and see what my average split was this past year. I meant average splits of .20 across the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) I'm not very good at math (majored in applied math and statistics), but it seems to me the number of open targets under 7 yards at open nationals is pretty minimal. If there were 20 of them (which seems like a lot) and you did .20 splits on all of them, you would only lose 1 second to the guy who did .15 on all of them. That's around 1/4 of the actual difference between tilley and max last year. Like I said, watching all the top guys at 3 straight nationals, it doesn't seem to me like the overall winners in ANY division had the fastest splits in that division. They seemed to shoot more accurately, and shoot sooner, and make fewer errors, and have less wasted movement. I also suspect that some of the guys with crazy fast splits were actually shooting faster than they could see. But I admit I don't know enough or care enough about open guns to argue as anything other than a devil's advocate. I just think that for most people there is WAY lower hanging fruit than their trigger speed, so it's not worth investing very much time in just being able run the gun fast. Of course, when it comes down to the influence of grip technique on splits, as in holding the gun steadier so it returns to a good sight picture more quickly (or perhaps just stays in a good sight picture with an open gun), any gains there should translate to most any difficulty of target. I didn't say the winner of nationals would have the fastest splits and I have a pretty good understanding of where match performance comes from. Here's is the deal with Open division. It is the easiest division to shoot and the hardest division to win. Highest hit factors means every mistake or delay is more costly so things that don't matter as much in other divisions like splits add up a lot faster in Open. Since I obviously need to be more specific with you because I didn't expect you to take me to mean only open targets inside 7 let me change the criteria from open targets at 7 yards to whichever targets in a match that are able to be shot consistently well by multiple shooters at sub .20 splits. After checking out my video data and taking a chance to reflect back on the year, it is probably closer to any target 10 yards and in and open targets out to 15. I did some figuring on my match data from this past year. Of the data I was able to collect, I shot 899 splits with a total time of 188.67 seconds for an average split of .209. That's actually faster than I thought it would be and I'm going to amend my statement in the last post as I no longer think averaging .20 splits is incredible. I've shot more matches than a few squadded with the top guys and I can tell you with absolute certainty that their match pace is faster than my current match pace. So anyway, yes I think it's possible that Open nationals can be won with average splits of .20, but in order to average .20, you're going to need to be capable of splits faster than .20. Edited February 12, 2016 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I tend to agree with Jake and Scott that 1 sec is right on the limit of what an accomplished shooter can do with a open gun. and it'd probably take multiple goes and then if you're lucky you'd snag one. I agree totally with this comment: "Open division. It is the easiest division to shoot and the hardest division to win. " The guys with the fastest split are not always match winners. Every now and then there's guys with magic fingers who can rip 10 splits on the close stuff but on the distance stuff when top guys are still running 20 splits those guys might be running 30 splits so any advantage they got spraying and praying the close stuff is negated. Generally though the top shooters in open can rip the fast splits. I know a few in particular in my local area and I can tell when they are shooting the stage just by sound alone. The cadence of their splits is noticeably quicker than most other shooters even other M's. Now perhaps part of what makes it sound fast is a slower transition (ie more time between targets makes splits sound faster) but I know for a couple of guys 12 splits are the norm on close or open targets and 10 splits not un-common. every now and then they can loosen up enough an bag an 8 split. Could they do 5 of them in a row? It would certainly be very, very hard. I think it's 'possible' but as Scott said you'd have to run that drill a lot of times right on the ragged edge to finally bag one. someone like a max or a grauffel I think could get there with enough time on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) BTW jake, I watched your old movement vid. very helpful. getting a fast exit is something I struggle with in certain positions. it's something I need to work on. Edited February 12, 2016 by BeerBaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RippinSVT Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I'm by no means an expert about USPSA...I'm unclassified and fairly new but typically shoot master-level scores and win much of the local stuff. That said, I rarely have the fastest splits. I average .15-.20 inside 15 yards, and I know I shoot against one guy who raves about his .11-.12 splits. He finishes 5th-10th. I guess my point is that at all but the highest levels, the splits aren't winning and losing a person the match, from my observations. Fast transitions and solid hits seem to carry much more bearing on who wins. That said, I don't personally think a sub-1.0 is possible by conventional means. An exhibition type shooter might be able to hip-fire it (think Bob Munden-esque) and pull it off, but to actually draw and fire 6 A's in the practical fashion with aimed fire is a stretch. Think about Miculek doing his world records from low-ready, now add a draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 With all this talk about splits Rob Latham said if he could shoot .20 splits trough an entire match, he would be tuff to beat. I feel it's good to have all the skills you can, use them or not. It's better to have a 100mph boat and never run 100 that need 100 mph boat and not have it, from my old boating days., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I repeat what I said, when this thread was first started: No. Show me a person that has a .44 surrender draw to a 7 yard alpha, and can shoot .11 alpha splits (not just ripping rounds into the berm) or faster on demand, and I might start to think it's possible. Until then, no. Just gonna put this here. Even with a million bucks on the line, I don't know that anyone would be able to claim that prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 As I said before, I don't think anyone currently could claim it either, but it certainly isn't impossible. If it is possible to do the constituent parts separately, it is possible to string them together. .50 surrender draw? Possible although difficult. .10 or lower splits? Possible although difficult. Combine them all? Extreme difficulty, bordering on limit of human function, but not impossible. With a cool million on the line, I think several people would at least get very close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3djedi Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 JM can do .2 and less splits with a 50bmg. https://youtu.be/pAW3dlTMv6g Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Please no one take this as a slight against or toward you. What if more of super elite athletes got into the shooting sports. Super high level people such as pro tennis, Olympic. The people that can see the stitches on a fast ball or slow down a tennis serve to see the fuzz on the ball. We are such a small sample of the population that's shooting USPSA. Would a sub one second bill drill just become something you would expect. Just too many average Joe's working hard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Super athleticism doesn't really transfer to USPSA style shooting like it does to other sports. The biggest thing the USPSA talent pool suffers from is lack of participation. If there were 5,000,000 active action pistol shooters, then yeah I would expect a much higher skill ceiling in USPSA, but a one second bill drill would still not be common place in any way shape or form. There gets to be a point where it physically isn't possible to improve beyond. You'll never shoot a split faster than the cycling rate of your gun. If you just put your hands through the normal motions of a draw at max speed without a gun, you'll never be able to do it faster than that with a gun. A one second bill drill is barely inside these limitations. Edited February 12, 2016 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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