FTDMFR Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) I know this isn't really a rules question, but I'm not sure where else to put this. Say you're at a match with open squadding, and there are four of you in a squad. After you have shot one stage, you run into three guys who ask to join your squad because they don't have a timer, and you join up. Let's call your squad Squad A. Later on in the day, your squad puts your score sheets in line to shoot a stage. There are about 15 shooters ahead of your squad for that stage. Another squad, Squad B, then gets in line behind your squad. Since there's a huge wait for this stage, the three guys who later joined Squad A decide to pick up the stage they missed before they joined the squad, since there's no line at that stage. So they grab their sheets, borrow a timer, and run through the stage in like 10 minutes. My question is this: once those three guys finish picking up that stage, can they get back in line along with the rest of Squad A, or do they have to go in the back of the line after Squad B? How does your club handle this? Should those three guys ask Squad B first before leaving to pick up that stage? Apologies if this is a stupid question. Most of the matches I shoot have fixed squads, so open squadding is a little new to me. Edited June 1, 2015 by FTDMFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racnsoonr Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 There really shouldn't be anyone walking around without a squad. Our RM calls for squad moms to get an equal amount of shooters and everyone just picks a squad and that's that..pretty simple process. You don't start until everyone has a squad...if you show up late or have to shoot through for some reason...then it's up to the RM to work that out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Dumb question: If those three guys had gone to the porta-potty or the lunch truck for the same amount of time, would it change the outcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 At all the local clubs here, save one, use open squadding. I like to call it pseudo-open squadding where groups of folks drift from stage to stage. What you describe is just fine. But, one thing to consider, is let the folks waiting behind you know what you are doing. One of the most uncool things to do is add people to your squad when there are people behind you. Make sure it does not look like you are adding new shooters to your group. If a new group of shooters show up, be sure to explain what is going on. That way they can decide if they still want to wait there or go somewhere else. The only other thing I can think of is make sure the folks are back when you get on the stage. If they are not there for the start, they should forfeit their "slot" and move to the bottom of the pile. Causing extra waiting while your guys are "saving time" is a sure way to cause ill feelings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTDMFR Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) At all the local clubs here, save one, use open squadding. I like to call it pseudo-open squadding where groups of folks drift from stage to stage. What you describe is just fine. But, one thing to consider, is let the folks waiting behind you know what you are doing. One of the most uncool things to do is add people to your squad when there are people behind you. Make sure it does not look like you are adding new shooters to your group. If a new group of shooters show up, be sure to explain what is going on. That way they can decide if they still want to wait there or go somewhere else. The only other thing I can think of is make sure the folks are back when you get on the stage. If they are not there for the start, they should forfeit their "slot" and move to the bottom of the pile. Causing extra waiting while your guys are "saving time" is a sure way to cause ill feelings... What happened is that someone in Squad B looked a little irked that I was adding scoresheets into the middle of the pile. I don't think they knew the backstory, and they probably thought I was just adding my own scoresheets to the pile and cutting in line. So those three guys ended up having to go to the back. Funny thing is, a few minutes after those three guys got put in the back of the pile, a member of Squad B who had left to pick up a stage came back and went ahead and put his scoresheet back with his squad (and ahead of A's three guys and maybe even another squad that had also gotten in line). So I guess doing that is kosher after all. I probably should have explained what the situation was with the three shooters a little better and they might not have had to go to the back of the line after all. Edited June 2, 2015 by FTDMFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) The on deck shooting squad has control of the clipboard of shooters and holds the stage discription. If a micro squad roles up and trys to inject their list, thats a no go. They must first ask permission to join the shooting squad. I have had shooters put their sheets into the clipboard while our squad was walking the stage. We run our shooters thru and hand them back their sheets. Generally speaking if the first shooter is off, there is no joining, permission or not. Edited June 2, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 I don't really get what you mean by open squads, where are these matches? Around here I would describe our matches as no squads. You show up, pick whatever stage you want to start first and put your name at the bottom of the list. After you shoot that stage you go to whatever stage you want next and shoot that one, and so on with the rest of the stages. Often we shoot the match with friends in a group were we all put our names together and move through stages together, but I wouldn't call that a squad, just a group of shooters. If I for example showed up later than a few of my friends who had already shot stage one, shoot a few stages with them and then quickly leave them to make up the first stage I missed, I don't think it's appropriate to then catch back up with my friends and try to cut other people in line. But maybe your "open squadding" is different from our "no squadding"? Or to put it another way. In your example, say Squad A is walking up to the bay with the long wait (Stage 2). Those 3 shooters notice the long wait and before putting their names in on Stage 2 go over to the stage they missed (Stage 1) and then come back to Stage 2. While those 3 shooters are shooting Stage 1, Squad B has put their names in on Stage 2. Can those 3 shooters just stick their names ahead of Squad B with the rest of Squad A? That doesn't sound appropriate to me and sounds like pretty much the same thing as if they put their names in on Stage 2 for 5 minutes, then took their names out, went over to Stage 1 and came back to Stage 2. Although if they get permission from everyone in Squad B, and everyone else who put their names in while they were shooting Stage 1, then I guess that's fine to cut... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 If it's open squadding, there is no squad A/B etc. Russell92 - what you are describing IS open squadding. All the monthly L1's and Tues Nite Steel at Rio Salado are shot this way. You show up & register, go shoot the stages in any order. When you get to the stage your scorecard goes on the bottom. Typically guys on the bottom will take the clipboard & timer. When you move up to 'deep hole' you pass them off to the bottom of the list. Clipboard will call out shooter/on deck/in the hole/2 or 3 brassers/2 or 3 for taping & steel. After you shoot you grab your scorecard/brass/rangebag & head to the next stage. Usually a few people will shoot together - when their group has finished a stage they will move together to the next stage and put their 3 or 4 cards on the bottom of the stack. The timers/clipboards stay on each stage - they are the property of the group running the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Russell92 - what you are describing IS open squadding. Thanks, yeah I figured it meant the same thing as what we do at Rio. And I wouldn't consider going up to a stage and sticking my scorecard in the middle of the stack ahead of other shooters just so I can shoot along with my friends. That's why you only get 1 scorecard, you can only be on one stage at a time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTDMFR Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Russell92 - what you are describing IS open squadding. Thanks, yeah I figured it meant the same thing as what we do at Rio. And I wouldn't consider going up to a stage and sticking my scorecard in the middle of the stack ahead of other shooters just so I can shoot along with my friends. That's why you only get 1 scorecard, you can only be on one stage at a time... That's not exactly what happened in my situation. All of squad was already in line. There were a ton of shooters ahead of our squad, so those guys in our squad left to pick up a stage that was empty. When they got back, there were still a ton of shooters ahead of us. I agree though, it probably would have been more clear if they had asked the squad behind us first if they'd be okay with it. I think there was just a misunderstanding, and people thought these guys just showed up and tried to cut in. No big deal. Edited June 2, 2015 by FTDMFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Yeah I understood the situation you had. I still think it's the same as the example I made in my first post above. I feel once you take your scoresheet out of the stack on one stage and go shoot another stage you have lost your place in line on that first stage. And as pmt mentioned, there are no "squads", you can shoot in a group with your friends, but that's not a squad which has any right to cut people in line in order to stick together. Sure I guess it's fine if you get permission from everyone behind you in line, but that also includes those who came to that stage while you were shooting the stage with no line. At least that's my thoughts on open/no squadding, but I'm still pretty new to this style of match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 With all these shooters jumping around, do they still shoot with a RO at each stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 With all these shooters jumping around, do they still shoot with a RO at each stage?Out here, squads self-RO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 What is surprising is that people are still using paper. I guess open squading has to as doing it in practiscore would be a pain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 ok, I guess I don't get the whole 'open squadding' thing no matter how it's defined .... at every local match I've been to here in Florida when you show up to register there is a paper squad list, which, after paying your fees you simply sign up on a squad that has spaces open and that's your squad for the day ... simple. not sure I see what open squadding buys you .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 What is surprising is that people are still using paper. I guess open squading has to as doing it in practiscore would be a pain we do our weeknight steel matches using what sounds like open squadding (i would call it no squadding). people start on whichever stage they want, wait their turn, then go find another one with a short line. We do it in practiscore because we have indoor plumbing and electricity in idaho, but we give everyone a plastic card with sponsors logos and a spot to write their name in wet-erase marker. they use the cards to hold their place in line. For sure, you can only be in line on one stage at a time. If you go somewhere else to shoot something else, you come back and get in the back of the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTDMFR Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) ok, I guess I don't get the whole 'open squadding' thing no matter how it's defined .... at every local match I've been to here in Florida when you show up to register there is a paper squad list, which, after paying your fees you simply sign up on a squad that has spaces open and that's your squad for the day ... simple. not sure I see what open squadding buys you .... It has its advantages. You don't have to show up at a fixed time, which is good for some people's schedules. At one match I shoot with open squadding, if I show up late enough in the day, I can sail through a 5-stage match in less than an hour. With fixed squadding, if one squad is really slow, due to shooters not resetting or SOs not keeping things moving along, it causes every other squad to get backed up as well. Edited June 2, 2015 by FTDMFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 not sure I see what open squadding buys you .... it means you don't all have to start and finish at the same time. you can run the match all evening (in our case) and the people who show up early and help setup are done and gone in an hour or so. Other folks come a bit later when they get off work, and end up helping tear down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 GSSF matches are all Open Squadding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 GSSF matches are all Open Squadding. With paper score sheets and fixed RO's. I imagine it would be a pain to run open squadding in Practiscore. I guess I envisioned open squadding always using fixed RO's. Otherwise, I'd be concerned about not having any certified RO's present on a stage at a given time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 ok, I guess I don't get the whole 'open squadding' thing no matter how it's defined .... at every local match I've been to here in Florida when you show up to register there is a paper squad list, which, after paying your fees you simply sign up on a squad that has spaces open and that's your squad for the day ... simple. not sure I see what open squadding buys you .... Our Tues Nite Steel matches start at 2:30pm & end at 7:pm. The retired folk get there early and the poor working stiffs don't show up until 5pm. Same thing with the USPSA L1's - start time is 7am, registration cut-off is 8:30. No set squads means that a dozen guys don't have to wait around for the entire squad ahead of them to finish a stage - it's a continuous line of shooters. The steel match uses paper score cards. The L1's use Practiscore with a paper name tag you carry from bay to bay to secure your spot in the shooting order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 What is surprising is that people are still using paper. I guess open squading has to as doing it in practiscore would be a pain We are going to find out on Sunday Practiscore day one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 ok, I get that open squadding is the ultimate in being flexible for shooters but sure sounds like a bigger burden on your volunteer match staff ... no wonder we seem to be getting a lot of staff burn -out ..... As a MD I'm already putting in a lot of extra time to run a match with 'regular' squadding ... sounds like I'd be doubling the amount of time I spend if I offered open squadding .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 ok, I get that open squadding is the ultimate in being flexible for shooters but sure sounds like a bigger burden on your volunteer match staff ... no wonder we seem to be getting a lot of staff burn -out ..... As a MD I'm already putting in a lot of extra time to run a match with 'regular' squadding ... sounds like I'd be doubling the amount of time I spend if I offered open squadding .... At all the local self-squadding matches have paid set up staff. The squads self-RO so no big deal. Get in before the close of registration, get done before the finish time, shoot and scoot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 There are some advantages to "open squadding" (I really don't like that term BTW, "no squadding" sounds a lot more appropriate. To me "open squadding" sounds like something where there are squads, but they're somehow "open", not sure what that would mean. Our matches really have no squads). Advantages are being able to handle more shooters, able to shoot through the match a lot faster, and not having 1 set start time for the match, with no squadding you can show up anytime within the set range. The weekend USPSA matches at Rio usually get about 100 people and have 4 stages. With traditional squadding you'd have to have squads of 25 each and that'd take forever. With no squadding everyone can usually shoot through the match in about 2 hours average I guess. And Tuesday Night Steel gets around 200 people each week! I'm pretty new to the no squadding match format. I prefer the traditional squadding format, just think it's more social and fun. But being able to get through a match quickly and not spend all day at the range is nice when it's 115 degrees! With paper score sheets and fixed RO's. I imagine it would be a pain to run open squadding in Practiscore. I guess I envisioned open squadding always using fixed RO's. Otherwise, I'd be concerned about not having any certified RO's present on a stage at a given time. We use Practiscore at least for the USPSA matches. The "scoresheets" are just sheets with our names to put in the stack and determine shooting order on each stage. Practiscore seems to work pretty well as long as everyone pre-registers. The no certified ROs is a concern. The way we hand off the timer and iPad you never really know whether the person running you is actually a certified RO. Although I've also shot at plenty of matches with squadding where non-certified ROs acted as ROs and been on squads with no certified ROs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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