motosapiens Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) Had this come up last weekend. I planned to skip a drop-turner (most people did), and after my run someone pointed out that the drop-turner hadn't been set. I didn't notice it. It didn't affect my run. There was some discussion as to whether it was a mandatory reshoot, or mandatory to let the score stand, or whether I should have some say in the matter beyond admitting that it didn't affect my run in the slightest. 4.6.2 makes it appear mandatory by the literal reading of the rules, but based on other situations I've observed, I suspect some of the most experienced RM's I've seen would allow the score to stand. What say you? Edited May 28, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 REF 4.6.2 A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken. It sucks but if you want to follow the rules you re-shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Then they probably shouldn't be RM's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 If it wasn't set, how did you activate it? Or was it popper-activated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) deleted Edited May 28, 2015 by eric4069 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 If it wasn't set, how did you activate it? Or was it popper-activated? popper. Then they probably shouldn't be RM's That made me lol out loud. It's been my limited experience (3 nationals and an area match plus a few sectionals) that many very experienced and well-regarded RM's are less literal than many folks on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 The only argument I could envision being made was that, regardless of the fact that you didn't plan on engaging it, without it being set there was one less visual distraction during your run because it never moved. I might mandate a reshoot for that if the drop turner was in your line of sight, or if you had to transition across it after hitting the popper. In those cases, I can (and have) seen people who were planning on skipping a DT hesitate when their sights passed the moving target. It's a similar situation to one stage at our last match. Some props had to be moved at the last minute due to water on the bay, and a swinger became visible at rest by accident. Several people gamers took advantage of that and shot it at rest, then walked back to activate the stomp box off the clock. For one shooter, the swinger didn't activate when he stepped on the box. In that case, it really didn't have any effect, since he didn't plan on activating it until after he was finished shooting. We did not mandate a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 The course must present the same challenge to all shooters as much as humanly possible. To that end it must be set and reset the same for all shooters. How the shooter approaches that challenge, within the rules, is up to them. Reshoot required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Mandatory reshoot. Who cares what you intended to do? I sure don't. Follow the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Interesting. So now we have 2 strong opinions one way (one from a respected RMI), and one that hedges his bets a little (jafo brought up a good point about distraction). FWIW, neither the shooter, nor the RO, nor the scorekeeper, nor anyone on the squad noticed the drop-turner wasn't set. It was a shooter from following day who was spectating to check out the timing of the apparatus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) The course must present the same challenge to all shooters as much as humanly possible. To that end it must be set and reset the same for all shooters. How the shooter approaches that challenge, within the rules, is up to them. Reshoot required. Thanks for your input Gary. I always appreciate when you and george respond in these threads. I think any reasonable person who saw the stage would conclude there was no difference whatsoever in the challenge presented to the shooter. The drop turner was available from a different port than the activator, so I never saw it one way or another. Regarding the bolded part above (just to play devil's advocate), which do you think presents a more identical challenge; to have a few competitors get multiple tries at a stage because of a technicality that had zero effect on their run, or take everyone's first run even tho a spectator said something was different that no one else noticed? I don't want to name any names, but I have seen other respected RMI's make a change to a stage during a staff shoot, and only order a re-shoot for the competitors that shot it in a way that the change would actually have affected them. It seemed reasonable to me at the time, but it also seems like little fudge against the literal reading of the rules. I have always believed that the RM had the authority to make such minor fudges in keeping with the spirit of the rules, for exceptional situations, but that an RO was best advised to stick to the literal reading, or ask the RM. Note that in this situation, a reshoot was ordered (which as a shooter, I was happy about, since I had a mike on a partial that I hadn't called), but it seemed like I could probably have argued to not have a reshoot since no one on the squad saw the issue. As an RO I'm just trying to gather info to make the best call in the future should I come across something like that, keeping in mind Troy's rule #1. Edited May 29, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I'm with Gary and JAFO on this one -- reshoot...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 100% reshoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveU Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I get your point about it not mattering but once you make it an optional thing, it becomes subjective. Did it affect your run? Was it a distraction? These aren't measurable. Also how you did on that run gets played into the decision subtly - which then makes it an unequal experience for the other shooters. This is why all reshoot rules are mandatory - using the word MUST. No other way to equitably determine without introducing subjective factors. Reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) The course must present the same challenge to all shooters as much as humanly possible. To that end it must be set and reset the same for all shooters. How the shooter approaches that challenge, within the rules, is up to them. Reshoot required. Thanks for your input Gary. I always appreciate when you and george respond in these threads. I think any reasonable person who saw the stage would conclude there was no difference whatsoever in the challenge presented to the shooter. The drop turner was available from a different port than the activator, so I never saw it one way or another. Regarding the bolded part above (just to play devil's advocate), which do you think presents a more identical challenge; to have a few competitors get multiple tries at a stage because of a technicality that had zero effect on their run, or take everyone's first run even tho a spectator said something was different that no one else noticed? I don't want to name any names, but I have seen other respected RMI's make a change to a stage during a staff shoot, and only order a re-shoot for the competitors that shot it in a way that the change would actually hauve affected them. It seemed reasonable to me at the time, but it also seems like little fudge against the literal reading of the rules. I have always believed that the RM had the authority to make such minor fudges in keeping with the spirit of the rules, for exceptional situations, but that an RO was best advised to stick to the literal reading, or ask the RM. Note that in this situation, a reshoot was ordered (which as a shooter, I was happy about, since I had a mike on a partial that I hadn't called), but it seemed like I could probably have argued to not have a reshoot since no one on the squad saw the issue. As an RO I'm just trying to gather info to make the best call in the future should I come across something like that, keeping in mind Troy's rule #1. My thought as the RO is i don't know what you intend to do while shooting the course. I must present the same problem to everyone when the buzzer goes off.I would have to examine each change in a course individually as they are all different in some way. Edited May 30, 2015 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) Just curious, did the either one of the RO's notice that activated target had not been reset? It should have been noticed along the way as you are shooting, a stop issued, targets pasted and a reshoot ensues. Either way, it should have been a reshoot and I doubt if any RM(I)s would argue that point. I believe the part you were referring to about only letting those affected by a change reshoot, the RM was probably going by 2.3.3. Edited May 30, 2015 by gng4life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 ... I must present the same problem to everyone when the buzzer goes off... Well, except in the case of an untaped target. That one still bothers me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 ... I must present the same problem to everyone when the buzzer goes off...Well, except in the case of an untaped target. That one still bothers me Yep, but we have a chance to correct that one without a reshoot. Hope you are all tuned up for Area 8 )) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 ... I must present the same problem to everyone when the buzzer goes off...Well, except in the case of an untaped target. That one still bothers me Yep, but we have a chance to correct that one without a reshoot. Hope you are all tuned up for Area 8 )) Absolutely! I'll see ya there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 4.6.2 A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken. This is an odd one. Technically, it requires a reshoot. But the shooter was able to complete the COF. The REF had no impact on him - wasn't even noticed until afterwards. If I were the shooter and had a good run, I might not want a reshoot. Rules is rules, but sometimes a rule meant to help can work against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) I think you are misinterpreting the phrase " ... unable to complete a course of fire" it does not mean ...after consulting the shooter or reading his mind about his intentions, the RO is to then make a speculative determination as to whether he completed the CoF or not .... what it does mean is that when range equipment failure happens or a moving target was not reset (things which are not debatable), the competitor "by definition" could not complete the course of fire and therefore a mandatory reshoot is required any other interpretation is a slippery slope which can't be quantified ....... Edited May 30, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenoShooter Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 The intention, cause or effect of the score is irrelevant. It's a reshoot per the rules of our sport. This is the problem with uninformed RO's or my personal favorite, "club rules." (But that's a different tangent and I'll stop right there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 <snip>what it does mean is that when range equipment failure happens or a moving target was not reset (things which are not debatable), the competitor "by definition" could not complete the course of fire and therefore a mandatory reshoot is required. "By definition"? I can't agree. If a target falls when the shooter is well past it, how does that keep the shooter from completing the COF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) when a target falls after a shooter is well past it there is only 2 possibilities .... he hit it and it took a while to fall ... no issue. Or it fell of its own accord = range equipment failure = mandatory reshoot. And again, you are misinterpreting the phase "keeping the shooter from completing the course of fire". When targets are not reset or equipment fails, unless it falls on top of the shooter it doesn't keep him from completing the course of fire in a literal sense .... it means he CAN'T complete the CoF because all the targets were not set properly, which is the definition of a CoF being able to be completed. "Completed" means all targets are available to be engaged as the course designer intended ,,, Edited May 31, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 "Completed" means all targets are available to be engaged as the course designer intended ,,, Sorry but designers intent means nothing, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now