teros135 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Interference is the one time a reshoot is the shooter's choice... 8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply. In the case of the RO yelling stop for a DQ (which may be be overturned by the RM a few minutes later, in this scenario), the "contact" is not inadvertent. The RO deliberately said "STOP" and interferered with the shooter. No, the RO didn't "interfere" with the shooter by voicing a legitimate command - that's not interference. Interference is defined above as "inadvertent contact from the Range Officer" (e.g., who was too close too the shooter and got bumped when the shooter moved) "or another external influence" (which, if the rules-makers meant "range commands", they would have said so). So, issuing a "stop" command wouldn't result in offering a reshoot. It would be a mandatory reshoot if it turns out that the shooter wasn't at fault, for instance a group of beagles who escaped from field training nearby appears on the top of the back berm and enthusiastically start down the berm to greet the squad and get their ears scratched (it happened...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Interference is the one time a reshoot is the shooter's choice... 8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply. In the case of the RO yelling stop for a DQ (which may be be overturned by the RM a few minutes later, in this scenario), the "contact" is not inadvertent. The RO deliberately said "STOP" and interferered with the shooter. The reshoot isn't issued under interference -- if it was, it would be optional at the RO's discretion..... Rather, if a competitor's DQ is overturned, and there is no score for the stage, it's as if they had not attempted the stage before. They're entitled to shoot each stage for score, so they get a reshoot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Grumpy, I agree with what you're saying. The RO stopping the shooter, be it for a suspected squib that's not there, a DQ that is overturned, etc, would result in a mandatory reshoot. I was only posting based on your use of "interference" as the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Ehh, I dunno. Here's a scenario: Level I match. Bud of mine (certified RO) running a competitor. During the course of fire, the competitor slips and does a full face plant on the stage. Buddy yells "STOP" because he's sure the competitor has dropped the gun, then realizes the competitor maintained control the entire time. Competitor was offered and took a reshoot based on the range command given in the wrong circumstances. If that's not interference, then what is it, based on the circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Ehh, I dunno. Here's a scenario: Level I match. Bud of mine (certified RO) running a competitor. During the course of fire, the competitor slips and does a full face plant on the stage. Buddy yells "STOP" because he's sure the competitor has dropped the gun, then realizes the competitor maintained control the entire time. Competitor was offered and took a reshoot based on the range command given in the wrong circumstances. If that's not interference, then what is it, based on the circumstances? I think it's interference. Some seem to be arguing that only inadvertent contact is interference, but clearly the rules is much broader. "In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. " The rules don't specifically address the inadvertent stop command for anything but a squib, but I think rational beings can come to the correct decision anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I agree. Several of us had a brief discussion after the incident, because my buddy was pretty sure of the ruling, but wanted to make sure he hadn't missed anything. One of our club members is a long-time CRO and RM and IPSC RO who has done several nationals and area matches, and he came to the same conclusion we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 If stopping the shooter unjustifiably is not interference, I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Interference is the one time a reshoot is the shooter's choice...8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.In the case of the RO yelling stop for a DQ (which may be be overturned by the RM a few minutes later, in this scenario), the "contact" is not inadvertent. The RO deliberately said "STOP" and interferered with the shooter. No, the RO didn't "interfere" with the shooter by voicing a legitimate command - that's not interference. Interference is defined above as "inadvertent contact from the Range Officer" (e.g., who was too close too the shooter and got bumped when the shooter moved) "or another external influence" (which, if the rules-makers meant "range commands", they would have said so). So, issuing a "stop" command wouldn't result in offering a reshoot. It would be a mandatory reshoot if it turns out that the shooter wasn't at fault, for instance a group of beagles who escaped from field training nearby appears on the top of the back berm and enthusiastically start down the berm to greet the squad and get their ears scratched (it happened...). Please read the post I was referring to....in it, I said mandatory reshoot. If the command the RO gave turns out to be in error, then how does that not interfere with the shooter if the shooter follows the commands of the RO? If the shooter stopped for such a command, said shooter was interfered with for no reason, once the RO call was overruled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Interference is the one time a reshoot is the shooter's choice...8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.In the case of the RO yelling stop for a DQ (which may be be overturned by the RM a few minutes later, in this scenario), the "contact" is not inadvertent. The RO deliberately said "STOP" and interferered with the shooter. The reshoot isn't issued under interference -- if it was, it would be optional at the RO's discretion..... Rather, if a competitor's DQ is overturned, and there is no score for the stage, it's as if they had not attempted the stage before. They're entitled to shoot each stage for score, so they get a reshoot.... Exactly Nik. Read back further. I said mandatory reshoot. Not offered, not given, but mandatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Ehh, I dunno. Here's a scenario: Level I match. Bud of mine (certified RO) running a competitor. During the course of fire, the competitor slips and does a full face plant on the stage. Buddy yells "STOP" because he's sure the competitor has dropped the gun, then realizes the competitor maintained control the entire time. Competitor was offered and took a reshoot based on the range command given in the wrong circumstances. If that's not interference, then what is it, based on the circumstances? I think it's interference. Some seem to be arguing that only inadvertent contact is interference, but clearly the rules is much broader. "In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. " The rules don't specifically address the inadvertent stop command for anything but a squib, but I think rational beings can come to the correct decision anyway. OK -- so the reshoot is optional? That means I get to deny it? Cool -- I can speed up a match anytime I want....... [sarcasm off] No, essentially what happens is you call "Stop" and the competitor terminates his attempt at the course of fire. Unless you're disqualifying the competitor he's entitled to complete a run without being stopped -- so he's allowed to reshoot the stage. It can't fall under interference though -- because then the reshoot would be at the match official's discretion, and that won't fly in this instance. In essence what you have once you reset the stage, is essentially the same situation you had before the initial attempt: a competitor in need of shooting the stage...... But I think we're getting lost in semantics...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Interference is the one time a reshoot is the shooter's choice...8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.In the case of the RO yelling stop for a DQ (which may be be overturned by the RM a few minutes later, in this scenario), the "contact" is not inadvertent. The RO deliberately said "STOP" and interferered with the shooter.The reshoot isn't issued under interference -- if it was, it would be optional at the RO's discretion..... Rather, if a competitor's DQ is overturned, and there is no score for the stage, it's as if they had not attempted the stage before. They're entitled to shoot each stage for score, so they get a reshoot.... Exactly Nik. Read back further. I said mandatory reshoot. Not offered, not given, but mandatory. Then it can't be given for interference, right? Because there's nothing there about a mandatory reshoot...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) Request RM, explain the situation. Then prepare for your reshoot that has just been granted. I hope we can agree that RO interference is not limited to physical contact. Edited May 30, 2015 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Request RM, explain the situation. Then prepare for your reshoot that has just been granted. I hope we can agree that RO interference is not limited to physical contact. Oh absolutely. And often what I post in this forum is me playing devil's advocate...... George and you have taught me well....... When you speak, I listen. When I argue with you, it is to broaden my understanding, and to add to the discussion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Request RM, explain the situation. Then prepare for your reshoot that has just been granted. I hope we can agree that RO interference is not limited to physical contact. Oh absolutely. And often what I post in this forum is me playing devil's advocate......George and you have taught me well....... When you speak, I listen. When I argue with you, it is to broaden my understanding, and to add to the discussion.... Right back at you my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) OK -- so the reshoot is optional? That means I get to deny it? Cool -- I can speed up a match anytime I want....... [sarcasm off] No, essentially what happens is you call "Stop" and the competitor terminates his attempt at the course of fire. Unless you're disqualifying the competitor he's entitled to complete a run without being stopped -- so he's allowed to reshoot the stage. It can't fall under interference though -- because then the reshoot would be at the match official's discretion, and that won't fly in this instance. In essence what you have once you reset the stage, is essentially the same situation you had before the initial attempt: a competitor in need of shooting the stage...... But I think we're getting lost in semantics...... There doesn't appear to be any rule that supports what you are saying. You seem to be agreeing with me that the rulebook doesn't cover everything and sometimes sensible people need to just do the fair and equitable thing. The RO option in interference isn't there to just randomly deny reshoots just to be a big mean jerk. It's to allow the RO to use some discretion for marginal events (gust of wind, spectator chatter, bogus claims of interference). It's not *really* optional to offer a reshoot if you are standing in the shooter's way and he backs up into you, or if he has to stop and look you in the eye and wait for you so he can get to a position. Oddly enough, we had this situation come up this weekend but it was resolved without any drama. Shooter had just gone past a target, realized he forgot it, and swung his gun back towards it. RO called stop just about the time the shooter reached the 180 point, but the shooter seemed to catch himself at about that same instant. The RO concluded that in retrospect, he wasn't sure the 180 break had occurred, and from where I was standing (with a pretty good view) I think he was right (no dq offense had actually occurred, but it was sure close). So reshoot with pretty much no pages of internet discussion, lol. Edited June 1, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 If using Practiscore, can you give a DQ and also score the targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunchies95 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Yes you can. You enter the score first, then input the DQ. Had it happen this past weekend where we knew there was the possibility of the shooter getting the DQ overturned and scored the stage to prevent a reshoot should the DQ be overturned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Interested to know the details of the DQ and the scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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