Scoring Targets After DQ

[grapemeister]

Some Ro's insist on scoring targets in cases when a shooter was disqualified before finishing a course of fire. Any good reason for scoring the targets? I'm only speaking of cases when the shooter didn't finish the course of fire.

I'm sure I know the answer, but I'm hoping that some RO's reading this will learn something new. But, maybe I'll be surprised and learn something new.

[bikerburgess]

I see no reason to score the targets if the shooter was stopped before finishing the course of fire, if the DQ is overturned then the shooter will have to re-shoot the stage if it was scored or not.

[Bkreutz]

Force of habit??

[terrydoc]

Our Stats guru here in Australia wants it done for the life of me I can never understand why, as bikerburgess said if the DQ is overturned it's a reshoot anyway.

[explosivewhale]

My experiences is that dq means no scoring

[Gary Stevens]

Suppose the shooter is stopped and issued a DQ half way through the course. Scored as shot is going to yield a poor score if any score at all. If the shooter wins his/her arbitration are they supposed to accept the results of "as shot" scoring?

Scoring the targets after a DQ is not called for.

[Nik Habicht]

Suppose the shooter is stopped and issued a DQ half way through the course. Scored as shot is going to yield a poor score if any score at all. If the shooter wins his/her arbitration are they supposed to accept the results of "as shot" scoring?

Scoring the targets after a DQ is not called for.

I mostly agree with Gary.......

Unless the DQ offense occurs at "If clear, hammer down, holster" or later......

In that case I'd want to score it and preserve the score, just in case the DQ gets overturned.....

[George Jones]

Nik has it exactly right.

If the shooter was stopped, not much sense in scoring unless some other issue was involved (such as a squib).

If the shooter completed the stage, you might as well score it while waiting for the RM. Not only will your stage be ready to go for the next shooter, the time/score will be recorded in case the DQ was not correct.

[grapemeister]

While taking a shower this morning I thought of another scenario. What if the shooter had engaged all the targets, but was stopped and DQ'd before the question " if you are finished" was asked. unload and show clear command was given. Let say in this scenario the RO scored the targets, and recorded the time. The RM shows up, and for whatever reason over turns the DQ.

In this scenario would the shooter automatically, and with out a choice be given a reshoot, or does the shooter have a choice? What if the shooter said that he or she was intending on engaging another target before the stop command, and wants a reshoot. Or, the shooter says, hey that was the best run of my life, and that stage win would put me in first place, and the shooter doesn't want a reshoot.

I'm thinking the shooter should reshoot the stage without a choice, out of farness to the other shooters. What say y'all?

Edit to add: But I'm also thinking of the fairness to the shooter with the world record run. Been looking over the rules, but can't seem to find anything that would apply...but I'm sure I'm missing the rule or rules somewhere in the book.

Edited May 28, 2015 by grapemeister

[grapemeister]

After much thought, and without knowledge at this time of a rule that would say otherwise, I think as an RM, which of course I am not, I would give the shooter the choice. It seems like a possible scenario of damned if I do and damned if I do not.

[Nik Habicht]

Up until the point where "If Clear, Hammer down, Holster" is given to the shooter, the competitor may resume shooting. So, if the "Stop" command is utilized prior to that happening, it's either a match DQ or a reshoot -- because the shooter was stopped before the end of the stage. (I'm assuming the Stop had a purpose -- so I don't think RO interference comes into play here; hence not optional, unless its a really weird situation.)

[Nik Habicht]

Also -- prompted by grape's pm -- keep in mind that the only optional reshoot is for interference, so if you want to do that -- re-read that section of the rulebook and make sure there's something in there that you can hang the decision on.

A stop for a safety reason is just that -- it';s not interference. But that scenario is also remote (Competitor engaged all targets, and is then stopped); more common is a safety concern during unloading -- fortunately also rare....

[grapemeister]

Thanks, Nik, for the reply. Although, I think I understand what you're saying, I'm still kind of trying to wrap my mind around it. Perhaps I'm looking for a black and white answer that's really not there.

In the mean time... in a scenario like this, would RM's be way off base or way outside their authority in using discretion or leeway in giving the shooter a choice? I don't really have aspirations of being an RM right now, but when working major matches I take note of decisions that are made, learn from it, and ask myself what kind of RM I would be.

Anyhow, I'm always open to learning.

Thanks

[GrumpyOne]

Mr. Grape, I think Nik hit the nail. If the RO stops someone for something other than a safety violation, up until the hammer down holster command, it is interference with the shooter, and a mandatory reshoot. If it was a safety violation, and a DQ, and the RM overturned the DQ, it then becomes interference, and a mandatory reshoot. I don't see how the RM could justify letting the score stand.

[motosapiens]

Mr. Grape, I think Nik hit the nail. If the RO stops someone for something other than a safety violation, up until the hammer down holster command, it is interference with the shooter, and a mandatory reshoot. If it was a safety violation, and a DQ, and the RM overturned the DQ, it then becomes interference, and a mandatory reshoot. I don't see how the RM could justify letting the score stand.

Can you point out which rule says RO interference is a mandatory reshoot?

[JAFO]

Interference is the one time a reshoot is the shooter's choice...

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

[Nik Habicht]

Interference is the one time a reshoot is the shooter's choice...

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

Actually, in order for interference to be the shooter's choice, the RO has to first decide if he thinks he needs to make that an option.......

So, it's not automatically shooter's choice, even in a case of interference......

[grapemeister]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm getting it, so to speak, or in other words, I have a new perspective on things.

I don't want to ware you guys out, but, I have one more scenario, or question. After thinking this over today, and reading the different replies, something else occurred to me.

Using the last scenario, but with a little different twist. What if, as the RO, and knowing a DQ violation occurred, I waited until after the range is clear to DQ the shooter. I'm only speaking of case in which the shooter engaged all targets before committing a violation that would warrant a DQ, but before there was chance for me to give the command of unload and show clear. What if I waited...cool or not cool? My reason for waiting would be to avoid the controversy that might come up in a case such as the last scenario I posted.

Edited May 29, 2015 by grapemeister

[grapemeister]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm getting it, so to speak, or in other words, I have a new perspective on things.

I don't want to ware you guys out, but, I have one more scenario, or question. After thinking this over today, and reading the different replies, something else occurred to me.

Using the last scenario, but with a little different twist. What if, as the RO, and knowing a DQ violation occurred, I waited until after the range is clear to DQ the shooter. I'm only speaking of case in which the shooter engaged all targets before committing a violation that would warrant a DQ, but before there was chance for me to give the command of unload and show clear. What if I waited...cool or not cool? My reason for waiting would be to avoid the controversy that might come up in a case such as the last scenario I posted.

Actually, you guys can disregard that last question. I should have thought about it more before posting. I wrote it and then it occurred to me that an RO should under no circumstances allow a shooter to continue after committing a DQ violation, even if all targets had been engaged.

Edited May 29, 2015 by grapemeister

[Gary Stevens]

One other slight issue. I believe it was pointed out that the shooter might have finished and had an AD on the ULASC command. If so there is a potential that several seconds have been added to the timer.

Since I show the timer to the scoring RO as I start my unload commands I have a correct time. Not everyone does this, although they should.

[motosapiens]

One other slight issue. I believe it was pointed out that the shooter might have finished and had an AD on the ULASC command. If so there is a potential that several seconds have been added to the timer.

Since I show the timer to the scoring RO as I start my unload commands I have a correct time. Not everyone does this, although they should.

Are you saying the time of the AD would be incorrect?

Edited May 29, 2015 by motosapiens

[Gary Stevens]

The question was about scoring the targets regardless of the DQ. While I could see scoring them in a perfect situation I still have trouble with it.

Then the scenario was broached of a DQ after completion, I.e. An AD on the unload.

This would produce an incorrect time on the timer. So now what? Give the shooter the time on the timer, or go back and review the timer for the correct time?

[Nik Habicht]

I've always glanced at the timer display before holding it over my shoulder, as I'm starting with "If you are finished....."

So I've generally got the time. If I'm certain, we'll score the stage; if there's any doubt we wouldn't -- but that's the same as any other run, right? As the RO you have to know that the time that you're reporting is in fact correct.....

[GrumpyOne]

Interference is the one time a reshoot is the shooter's choice...

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

In the case of the RO yelling stop for a DQ (which may be be overturned by the RM a few minutes later, in this scenario), the "contact" is not inadvertent. The RO deliberately said "STOP" and interferered with the shooter.

[Gary Stevens]

I've always glanced at the timer display before holding it over my shoulder, as I'm starting with "If you are finished....."

So I've generally got the time. If I'm certain, we'll score the stage; if there's any doubt we wouldn't -- but that's the same as any other run, right? As the RO you have to know that the time that you're reporting is in fact correct.....

Just pointing out that if one is of the thought to score after a DQ, there may be unforeseen things pop up that they need to consider before they happen.