DQing a shooter on another squad?

[FTDMFR]

I think I need to clarify. The squad watching yelled stop and explained to the RO what happened. The RO on the shooter's squad ultimately called the DQ.

[herky]

Maybe not in this case, but how many are aware that the scorekeeper is the second RO on the COF. Foot faults, procedurals, 180's, and other safety concerns. I almost never see the scorekeeper actively involved (at least at the local level) during the COF. Maybe it is not covered during the training, but even if not certified, the scorekeeper should be aware of what the shooter is doing.

[gng4life]

Maybe not in this case, but how many are aware that the scorekeeper is the second RO on the COF. Foot faults, procedurals, 180's, and other safety concerns. I almost never see the scorekeeper actively involved (at least at the local level) during the COF. Maybe it is not covered during the training, but even if not certified, the scorekeeper should be aware of what the shooter is doing.

Absolutely true! If the RO missed it (shouldn't have missed such an egregious act but I wasn't there so I don't know), then the scorekeeper should have. This is stressed at our local matches.

[Gary Stevens]

Gary, I did not say "issue a DQ". I said "stop someone for a safety infraction." Safety first, rules second. If that is not something you agree with, feel free to not shoot at my range.

I play by the rules first last and always.

Thanks for the friendly disinvite to participate in a USPSA match at "your" range.

[Gary Stevens]

I think I need to clarify. The squad watching yelled stop and explained to the RO what happened. The RO on the shooter's squad ultimately called the DQ.

So the RO issued a DQ on a violation he did not observe? DQ by consensus?

[Nik Habicht]

I don't think the rulebook differentiates between ROs on a particular stage/squad. If you're ROing at the match, you're a match official. Same as if I walk by you chamber testing rounds at the safe table -- even if I don't know who you are, you're going home.

That is a valid point concerning safety infractions outside a COF, but 8.3.5 (stop command) seems to state that "Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. " That would appear to preclude an RO *not* assigned to the stage from doing so.

So, to follow your logic, if I'm serving as RM at a match, I can't issue a DQ that I see because I'm not assigned to the stage?

[Nik Habicht]

How far do you take the squad DQ? Can a member of the audience issue a DQ for finger in the trigger guard? Would you support that?

Depends on the situation. If the witness is named Gary Stevens, and the distance to the shooter is short -- perhaps I'd entertain that call......

On the other hand, if you're telling me that you saw that from a 100 yards away -- I might want to talk to your eye doctor......

Generally speaking -- probably not a finger call. Probably not a 180 call -- but again it would come down to circumstances. Having once seen a competitor make a roughly 270 degree turn, rather than a 90 inn the opposite direction -- yep, that's a call I'd make any day, even though I was ~ 50 yards away. Fortunately I didn't have to as the RO handled it like a pro, once he recovered the power of speech. (He was just a couple of feet away when he got swept.....)

[Nik Habicht]

safety is #1, stop should be issued by peanut gallery, but DQ??? Lets say the clock RO says he didnt and the gallery says he did.

Doesnt the clock or scoring RO have the best vantage point. Perhaps the gallerys angle is different from the ROs down range.

I agree, if there is a potential saefty issue a stop should be called, DQ, not so sure unless the RO concures .

And what about what Gary just said, slippery slope....

I'm pretty much with you on these points....

[Nik Habicht]

Gary, I did not say "issue a DQ". I said "stop someone for a safety infraction." Safety first, rules second. If that is not something you agree with, feel free to not shoot at my range.

Stop doesn't have to equal DQ, right? You see something that's a bit scary you want to get the shooter stopped so you can sort it out. If it turns out you're wrong, then there's a reshoot......

And yes -- I know this is less than ideal. Ideally you'd want to perfectly stop shooters for safety infractions while also perfectly not stopping those folks who are close to, but have not broken the rule.....

[MarkCO]

Exactly correct Nik. I will always go to safety first, and then apply the rulebook to the infraction or lack thereof.

[RangerTrace]

Good discussion, I like it!!

[MarkCO]

I was RM at a match two weekends ago and I over-ruled 3 DQs. When I asked the RO what they saw, they started with "I think he..." or "I think I saw..." either they did or they did not, but "I think" is uncertain. If the RO does not articulate specifically that the infraction occurred, then there is no choice but to issue a reshoot. People get rattled and sometimes unplanned events are seen as safety infractions when in fact, they are not. Fortunately, in all three cases, the shooters were gracious and re-shot the stage.

While a little more experience would likely have prevented 2 of those 3 "stops" from being spoken, I will not come down hard on an RO who stops a shooter for a safety issue, even if they should not have. We have so few precious qualified ROs that I would rather educate and have them improve their officiating than not work a match. Maybe if we had a glut of volunteers, but in this day and age, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[rowdyb]

Is there a way to find out at your local club/match who is a certified RO?

[cnote]

Is there a way to find out at your local club/match who is a certified RO?

One club i shoot with uses practiscore for registration and one pull down question along with PF etc is "are u a USPSA recognized RO?"

[Sarge]

Is there a way to find out at your local club/match who is a certified RO?

Even at my local matches you must be certified to run a shooter.

[ChuckS]

Is there a way to find out at your local club/match who is a certified RO?

Rowdy,

Why do you ask?

[alma]

As I understand it the RM only gets involved as a point of escalation after a call has been made by the RO/CRO.

Otherwise you need to be the CRO/RO assigned to that stage, running the shooter or scoring to issue commands. At a Level I match there is no requirement for the RO assigned to the stage to be certified and no special authority provided to certified ROs not assigned to that stage (Certification is recommended for Level I but not required per Appendix A1).

Notice the requirement here to issue a stop command:

"8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer."

I would argue that if I am not even on that squad then I am not assigned to that stage and I have no authority. That doesn't mean I am not going to tell the MD/RM about it. If I am ROing someone and someone from another squad stops my shooter and interferes with the stage 8.6.2 and 10.6 could apply.

"7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master)."

"7.1.2 Chief Range Officer (“CRO”) – is the primary authority over all persons and activities in the courses of fire under his control, and oversees the fair, correct and consistent application of these rules (under the authority of the Range Master)."

"8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot."

"8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6."

If I was the RO in this case and I didn't see it happen then I am issuing a reshoot under 8.6.4.

"8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply."

"7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”, “Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no standing or authority as Range Officials for that match. ..."

Edited May 27, 2015 by alma

[PKT1106]

Is there a way to find out at your local club/match who is a certified RO?

There is a listing by state on the USPSA website under Club Support.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-lookup-ro.php

Have to b logged in, though. You have to do a little sleuthing because it is by state, not club or section.

[GrumpyOne]

In the case of being DQ'ed by only the RO running the stage, think of the case of a dropped gun outside the course of fire...Do you go and get your stage RO to pick it up? Or do you find any nearby RO to pick it up? They are called Range Officials for a reason..

[ChuckS]

Is there a way to find out at your local club/match who is a certified RO?

There is a listing by state on the USPSA website under Club Support.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-lookup-ro.php

Have to b logged in, though. You have to do a little sleuthing because it is by state, not club or section.

From the page:

"

The RO finder only displays surnames to logged in members who are authorized to upload scores for at least one club"

[cnote]

In the case of being DQ'ed by only the RO running the stage, think of the case of a dropped gun outside the course of fire...Do you go and get your stage RO to pick it up? Or do you find any nearby RO to pick it up? They are called Range Officials for a reason..

thats not a DQ, this thread is about stop = DQ

Of course any RO could do that, or escourt a shooter to function test a gun-or bag/exchange on an open berm with permission of RM

[frag316]

When I first started reading this thread, I was inclined to agree with the idea of an in-the-crowd RO issuing a DQ because there were floating ROs. Then I was inclined to agree with the idea of the squad's RO issuing a DQ based on what the spectators saw.

Now, I agree with Gary. By all means, stop the competitor if they perform an unsafe action. But the RO should have issued a reshoot in this instance for interference, after having a long talk with the competitor about safety BECAUSE HE DID NOT SEE THE INFRACTION. You cannot issue a DQ for an infraction you did not observe, regardless of reason.

Can ROs issue a DQ in areas where they have no direct control? Sure. At the Illinois Sectional a couple of years ago, a guy stripped down his gun on a table the thought was a safe area but was not. An RO walking by saw it and issued a DQ. If someone's going to the can and pulls off their belt with a gun still on it and is seen by an RO, that's also a DQ.

In this instance, there's no legal way to issue the DQ.

Put it this way--if this happened at a Level II or higher match, would it be allowed?

I don't think so either.

[Chris iliff]

Couple have it right. The rest, not so much.

IMHO

Gary Stevens is correct.

Alma is correct.

If I was the RO and did not see this and the "peanut gallery" caused my shooter to STOP. Shooter gets a reshoot. EVERYTIME.

This is such s slippery slope. SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY is first and foremost in my mind as I RO. Are RO's perfect? Of course not, and I applaud the peanut gallery and would never discourage anyone from speaking up. But, as Gary pointed out, I can not make a call (DQ) on what I myself did not see OR ANOTHER ASSIGNED RO. I WILL NEVER DO THAT.

I am sure that in the aftermath of an incident like this that there would be plenty of "learning" going on,

RESHOOT

Edited May 27, 2015 by Chris iliff

[Nik Habicht]

As I understand it the RM only gets involved as a point of escalation after a call has been made by the RO/CRO.

Otherwise you need to be the CRO/RO assigned to that stage, running the shooter or scoring to issue commands. At a Level I match there is no requirement for the RO assigned to the stage to be certified and no special authority provided to certified ROs not assigned to that stage (Certification is recommended for Level I but not required per Appendix A1).

Notice the requirement here to issue a stop command:

"8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer."

I would argue that if I am not even on that squad then I am not assigned to that stage and I have no authority. That doesn't mean I am not going to tell the MD/RM about it. If I am ROing someone and someone from another squad stops my shooter and interferes with the stage 8.6.2 and 10.6 could apply.

"7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master)."

"7.1.2 Chief Range Officer (“CRO”) – is the primary authority over all persons and activities in the courses of fire under his control, and oversees the fair, correct and consistent application of these rules (under the authority of the Range Master)."

"8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot."

"8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6."

If I was the RO in this case and I didn't see it happen then I am issuing a reshoot under 8.6.4.

"8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply."

"7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”, “Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no standing or authority as Range Officials for that match. ..."

If you're not assigned to "that stage" under what authority will you RO your squad through the stage?

[Gary Stevens]

At the risk of being banned from another range because of my opinion I'll offer this.

Having an RO card in your pocket is different from being a match RO. Dropping your gun and stopping a shooter who you know is also an RO to pick up your gun for you is a bad situation.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Gary Stevens