Shooting a drop turner before activating it?

[FTDMFR]

There was a stage this weekend that had three ports, with four paper targets in each port, and a pair of drop turners with a shared activator off in the corner.

I was shooting production, so in order to avoid a standing reload, I figured I had to avoid shooting both drop turners from the same port. So, I shot one drop turner before activating it from one port, and then I shot the activator and the second drop turner from another port. And I got two procedurals for it.

However, there was no written stage description, at least none that our squad could find. So, per 9.9.4, shooting the drop turner before activating it was legal, right?

I was pretty bummed to get the procedurals, since I mostly shoot IDPA and am slowly getting into USPSA, and I've been really looking forward to gaming a USPSA stage in a way that would be legal in USPSA but totally FTDR-worthy in IDPA.

Edited May 26, 2015 by FTDMFR

[Nghthwk1911]

I am taking it that you could see the face of the target from one of the ports., so in this case rule 1.1.5 kicks in, this is a free style sport, if they did not want it shot from there hide it better.

[ktm300]

Assuming a L1 match they could have specified that you had to activate it first. If they didn't all bets are off, if you can see it you can shoot it. Did they say they had stipulated you had to activate it? This type of stuff is why there is always a rule book in my shooting bag.

Several L2 stages over the last few months had targets that gave you a choice to shoot them then activate after your last shot but before you unloaded and showed clear. Kind of a long hard shot before it was activated so it was a choice you had to think about. As long as you remember to activate it you are good to go.

[Beastly]

Gamers gonna game. RO's gonna tax. Risk is inherent. Arbitration is always an option.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Beastly

[FTDMFR]

Yes, it was an L1 match.

We couldn't find a stage description. They are usually stapled to the stage somewhere, but there wasn't one on this stage, so we assumed it was shoot until you're happy.

It was just a club match, so it's not worth it to bring it up to the MD, but I'd like to know for future reference. And to know that my gaming was righteous.

Edited May 26, 2015 by FTDMFR

[StealthyBlagga]

... And to know that my gaming was righteous.

This is USPSA... gaming is ALWAYS righteous

[bikerburgess]

Yes, it was an L1 match.

We couldn't find a stage description. They are usually stapled to the stage somewhere, but there wasn't one on this stage, so we assumed it was shoot until you're happy.

It was just a club match, so it's not worth it to bring it up to the MD, but I'd like to know for future reference. And to know that my gaming was righteous.

Yes it is worth bringing to the MDs attention, (assuming the MD is acting as RM for the match like most club matches) the game has rules and they need to be followed regardless of match level. if the MD wants to have you shoot something a certain way he has two choices, compell the action through use of props and vision barriers OR if a level one match he can compel some things through the stage briefing, that's it no other options, if it gets gamed and he doesn't like it he can fix it next time

[FTDMFR]

To be fair, I'm not 100% sure there was no stage description. My squad just might not have been able to find it.

[racerba]

Always bring it up to the MD for future reference...always a learning experience, no matter who you are...

[racknrider]

Fairly new to USPSA but my understanding is that if you can see it you can shoot it. If you're not supposed to shoot a target from a position it should be hidden.

[Bkreutz]

No stage should start without a stage briefing, preferably a written one. Maybe the squad before you walked off with it. At any rate, if your RO was going to give you a procedural for not activating it and he didn't provide a briefing. That's on him/her.

[shootingchef]

who issued the procedurals and on what grounds were they issued? Another reason to know your rulebook. Question the call and ask for justification.

If in doubt seek out the MD/RM.

[jester121]

who issued the procedurals and on what grounds were they issued?

I agree -- valid procedural penalty errors, just like DQs, have a specific applicable rule from the rulebook, and must be specified by the RO on the scoresheet. If the penalty was for 10.1.1, that would be tough to justify in the absence of a WSB.

[ChuckS]

To be fair, I'm not 100% sure there was no stage description. My squad just might not have been able to find it.

Absolutely no difference!

[Poppa Bear]

I have been gamed many times because I did not see the hole and it was exploited. I did not close it with props or the WSB so it was on me and I sucked it up and learned from it. If they did not provide a Written Stage Briefing that closed the exploit then they needed to suck it up and deal with it. ALWAYS bring it up with the RM/MD at a level 1 if this happens. If they know and follow the rules they will have no choice but to overturn the procedurals even if it was in the WSB and the RO failed to read it or make it available.

[racerba]

Fairly new to USPSA but my understanding is that if you can see it you can shoot it. If you're not supposed to shoot a target from a position it should be hidden.

Yes, your understanding is correct. However, in Level I matches, you are allowed to put it into the WSB (written stage briefing) that prevents shooters from doing this or doing that...without having to use props to hide the target.

[CHARLES D]

Was the RO a certified USPSA RO ? If not, find one that is and ask him/her for better clarification. Personally for me-If I can see it then I more than likely will take a shot/s at it. If stage designer doesn't want it shot from different ports then hide it with a NS or hard cover.

Ran across same situation few years ago at Area 2 on a swinger. Stage was eventually thrown out. Bummed me out cause it was my personal best.

[RenoShooter]

Was the RO a certified USPSA RO ? If not, find one that is and ask him/her for better clarification. Personally for me-If I can see it then I more than likely will take a shot/s at it. If stage designer doesn't want it shot from different ports then hide it with a NS or hard cover.

Ran across same situation few years ago at Area 2 on a swinger. Stage was eventually thrown out. Bummed me out cause it was my personal best.

I saw the same thing happen on one of those "bear trap" style activators. It was allowed, just wish I would have thought of it!

[JAFO]

We held a "rain or shine" match this month which was well into the "rain" side of things. It was a muddy mess and some props had to be moved out of a water puddle to operate correctly on one stage. When they were, it opened a spot from which you could shoot ~ 1/3 of the A zone on a stomp-box activated swinger at rest from fairly close range. No one noticed prior to the start of the match. When my squad got there, almost everyone shot it at rest and walked back to activate the stomp box off the clock before ULSC. Totally per the rules, as we try to hide movers at rest and never use the L1 exemption in the WSB. Shooting Production, I shot it as intended because the reloads worked out better that way. The Open and Limited shooters had no such worries.

[frag316]

Yeah, like most have said--if you were shooting at the brown side of the target, it's legal to take it before activating it, in the absence of any directive requiring activation before shooting.

If the guy who designed the stage (and/or the RO) didn't want it done that way, they should have designed it differently. I have a bud who shot a stage at a L1 match and went around the end of the shooting area into another section without following the "path" the designer intended by the layout. The designer saw video of it and blew a gasket, saying he'd have called a forbidden action if he'd seen it. I objected, saying there was no direction saying competitors could not leave the bounded area, there was no safety issue that would deserve the forbidden action, and ended by telling him he should have designed it differently if he didn't want people to do that. He was unthrilled and still disagrees to this day, but also can't produce a rule saying what the guy did was illegal.

[FTDMFR]

Yeah, like most have said--if you were shooting at the brown side of the target, it's legal to take it before activating it, in the absence of any directive requiring activation before shooting.

If the guy who designed the stage (and/or the RO) didn't want it done that way, they should have designed it differently. I have a bud who shot a stage at a L1 match and went around the end of the shooting area into another section without following the "path" the designer intended by the layout. The designer saw video of it and blew a gasket, saying he'd have called a forbidden action if he'd seen it. I objected, saying there was no direction saying competitors could not leave the bounded area, there was no safety issue that would deserve the forbidden action, and ended by telling him he should have designed it differently if he didn't want people to do that. He was unthrilled and still disagrees to this day, but also can't produce a rule saying what the guy did was illegal.

This is why I'm really liking USPSA. If I did anything remotely like that in IDPA, I'd probably be PNGed from the club.

[9x45]

Theoretically the drop turners (max traps, swingers, drop outs, bobbers) are not visible until activated. I would believe that would have been the intent of the stage description which most likely stated activate before engaging drop turners, otherwise why bother? unless it was like 60 yards out.... It needs to be brought up to the MD. So the next time you don't have the stage description, go find it from whoever walked off with it. If it cannot be located, then get the MD to get a new one.

In your case if it did not say activate before engaging, you don't get the procedurals. And if you had the stage description saying activate first you would not have shot it that way.

[Graham Smith]

From the POV of a (former) match director and a stage designer... For any number of reasons, it can sometimes be difficult in an L1 match to fully cover movers. For this reason, both the written stage description and the shooter briefing should specify that you must activate the mover before shooting it.

As to there not being a written stage briefing on the stage, that's unacceptable. How can you know how it's supposed to be shot? What if it's an empty gun start, or there's a required reload, or any one of a number of things. That should never have happened. Also I would challenge the RO for imposing a penalty when there was no WSB or rule to back them up.

[EkuJustice]

If it dosent say you must activate it first and can see it inactivated it's fair game. It's just like walls. If it dosent specify in stage briefing it's to height as constructed. Nothing wrong with gaming the heck out of a stage and I do so every chance I get. If they wanna set up long springs with nothing to do on the way running from port to port for stages and I can eliminate that I will. I shot a coule targets at just a few feet with the gun over the wall before because it did tn say I couldn't. Saved about 18plus yard if move up range. Some yelling was done befoe the gun was even holstered but it was legal.

[9x45]

You can't shoot over a wall, or under a wall. The wall height goes to infinity. That should have been one procedural per shot. You can only shoot thru a port in the wall, or around the wall as long as you remain in the shooting area. Both the RO and MD should have been involved in rectifying that situation. Cheating is not gaming, but if you think it is, go ahead and take the procedurals.