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Bianchi Format Change


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I talked to one of the AP Rules committee members last night. They will have a meeting in Jan/Feb to finalize the details for the Cup program. Everything so far was done by a teleconference meeting. The next one is an "in-person" meeting at NRAHQ.

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Funniest thing I've heard lately is a request from the pistol division to move the dates for the worlds because they don't fit in with a certain shooters schedule.

Probably still coming over in May but might just stay in Berrin Springs or Bates another week if someone doesn't get their shit together

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I am a 'C' class shooter and, like so many others of my skill level, when I've had the chance to shoot a major match I've chosen (when the option was available) to shoot these matches in one day to save on expenses. The way to increase interest and participation in nearly anything is simple. Give people more bang for their buck (pun intended). I am in total agreement with those who would like to see a two day shooting schedule (plates and mover one day, practical and barricade the next, or whatever) so the average folk can get in and out with minimal expense. The 'Cup is one of those "Bucket List" events I'd like to try (when my heart issues are resolved), but only if I can do it without breaking the bank. I'm not going to flame anyone for having a different view, but I do believe the big picture has to be framed around what will bring in more interest and shooters to this and any shooting sport.

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I think that there are range capacity issues that would preclude a two day format, these issues would be exacerbated as competitor numbers grew. A three day format is pretty full-on for range staff and officials when there are 300 competitors and the rain just won't let up.

Just my. 02...... Flame shields are up.

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Distant Thunder and others.

Agree and disagree.

Agree that we need as many participants as is possible, Disagree we need to change the format much if at all.

All the improvements made in the last 5 - 10 years to the running of the Cup have all been to the credit of those that put them into effect, since 2005 the numbers attending has steadily grown, from well less than 150 to in excess of 250, really starting to get towards 300 if we don't screw it up. Usually around 15% of the competitors are from outside the US. Last year (2014) due to the Worlds being in Kentucky there were more than usual. I do remember the bad old days of the early 2000's, it was dire and the Cup was on it's last legs. The NRA did not care enough, and clearly the shooters did not either. But with some damn hard work by some and getting big sponsors on board, we got to the highs of 2013, 2014 and 2015.

The Sponsors have contributed over $200K per year for the last 5 years as far as I can tell, maybe more, I can't see that happening again anytime soon if they do not get the exposure to the maximum number of competitors for the maximum time possible.

The whole point of the Cup is that it takes three to four days. Everyone has to be shooting over the same course of fire in an equal manner over the same days with the same conditions. Should someone turn up and get it done Wednesday and then the rain comes Friday that person has had an advantage. The fact that you could be shooting Plates up first, hosing down freezing cold Wednesday morning, real butt puckering that one. Or under the glare of the cameras mid afternoon Friday, sweaty hot and humid.

Either way it has it's own difficulties. If it was easy then it would not be the Cup. The whole idea is the experience, the new competitors meeting Tuesday Evening, the Shooters get together on Thursday, the BBQ on Friday and the Banquet Saturday night. THAT is the Cup experience, not just the shooting.

This is what makes the Cup, THE CUP!

If anyone who shoots AP asks if you are shooting the Cup, they all know you mean The Bianchi Cup. When I was first asked if I wanted to go to the Cup I knew what they meant.

Are you listening anyone in Virginia???????

It is so different from other matches, otherwise we would not travel 7000miles plus, spend 2 weeks there among some of the nicest folks you will meet.

Here is the deal, if the sponsors do not get, or perceive they get, value for money this game is done. We might as well take up golf.

Safariland, Midway, Smith and Wesson to name but a few of the generous sponsors, do not hand over 10 guns and wads of cash out of the kindness of their hearts, they look at it as a cost benefit exercise, and anyone who thinks different is fooling themselves. The match entry fees do not even get close to covering the cost of running this show. I estimate the entry fees generate less than $75K US. That would be about ½ the cost of running a proper US Nationals, certainly to the level and professionalism required for what is the biggest Action Pistol Match there is.

If these guys think that 1/3rd of the field is going to push off early then why bother. The Volunteers need to know that they are not wasting their time by putting in some effort over the week or some for 2 weeks, to find that people want to sod off because it is too expensive to stay the whole 6 days. The GVRPC put in weeks of effort from the beginning of April, usually right up until the last minute to ensure this game plays.

I know, I have seen them working, some of us have even helped out with lawn mowing to make sure it all goes well. It is what you have to do.

Sorry mate the fairy who gives a shit just left the building.

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Distant Thunder and others.

Agree and disagree.

Agree that we need as many participants as is possible, Disagree we need to change the format much if at all.

All the improvements made in the last 5 - 10 years to the running of the Cup have all been to the credit of those that put them into effect, since 2005 the numbers attending has steadily grown, from well less than 150 to in excess of 250, really starting to get towards 300 if we don't screw it up. Usually around 15% of the competitors are from outside the US. Last year (2014) due to the Worlds being in Kentucky there were more than usual. I do remember the bad old days of the early 2000's, it was dire and the Cup was on it's last legs. The NRA did not care enough, and clearly the shooters did not either. But with some damn hard work by some and getting big sponsors on board, we got to the highs of 2013, 2014 and 2015.

The Sponsors have contributed over $200K per year for the last 5 years as far as I can tell, maybe more, I can't see that happening again anytime soon if they do not get the exposure to the maximum number of competitors for the maximum time possible.

The whole point of the Cup is that it takes three to four days. Everyone has to be shooting over the same course of fire in an equal manner over the same days with the same conditions. Should someone turn up and get it done Wednesday and then the rain comes Friday that person has had an advantage. The fact that you could be shooting Plates up first, hosing down freezing cold Wednesday morning, real butt puckering that one. Or under the glare of the cameras mid afternoon Friday, sweaty hot and humid.

Either way it has it's own difficulties. If it was easy then it would not be the Cup. The whole idea is the experience, the new competitors meeting Tuesday Evening, the Shooters get together on Thursday, the BBQ on Friday and the Banquet Saturday night. THAT is the Cup experience, not just the shooting.

This is what makes the Cup, THE CUP!

If anyone who shoots AP asks if you are shooting the Cup, they all know you mean The Bianchi Cup. When I was first asked if I wanted to go to the Cup I knew what they meant.

Are you listening anyone in Virginia???????

It is so different from other matches, otherwise we would not travel 7000miles plus, spend 2 weeks there among some of the nicest folks you will meet.

Here is the deal, if the sponsors do not get, or perceive they get, value for money this game is done. We might as well take up golf.

Safariland, Midway, Smith and Wesson to name but a few of the generous sponsors, do not hand over 10 guns and wads of cash out of the kindness of their hearts, they look at it as a cost benefit exercise, and anyone who thinks different is fooling themselves. The match entry fees do not even get close to covering the cost of running this show. I estimate the entry fees generate less than $75K US. That would be about ½ the cost of running a proper US Nationals, certainly to the level and professionalism required for what is the biggest Action Pistol Match there is.

If these guys think that 1/3rd of the field is going to push off early then why bother. The Volunteers need to know that they are not wasting their time by putting in some effort over the week or some for 2 weeks, to find that people want to sod off because it is too expensive to stay the whole 6 days. The GVRPC put in weeks of effort from the beginning of April, usually right up until the last minute to ensure this game plays.

I know, I have seen them working, some of us have even helped out with lawn mowing to make sure it all goes well. It is what you have to do.

Sorry mate the fairy who gives a shit just left the building.

I generally agree. It is as much about the experience as the shooting. One thing I will add is that if I was a sponsor (Springfield, Sig, S&W, etc), I would want some exposure for my guns in Production/Metallic classes. I'm sure as hell not selling anymore M&P's or XD's if if Doug or Rob shoot Open with a gun that looks like it's fresh from a RoboCop movie. I'm selling guns when a perspective buyer see's Bruce Gray shoot a 2" group at 50 yards with a factory P320. Or when Leatham shoots a 480 on Barricades with an XD. Catering the finals to almost all Open shooters seems foolish, if I want to attract and keep sponsors. If there are only 4 production/metallic finalists, I can think of more big-name sponsors than that who've got money in the pot with guys that may finish 5-10th in met/prod. If I am FNH, and I put up $80k sponsor money, and Sevigny shoots 1868 and gets 5th place in Production, while people that shoot "Okay for Open" scores end up in finals, I'm gonna be pissed. We shouldn't cater to the sponsors, but we should even the playing field across the classifications so that a better representation of the top guys in prod/met can shoot Saturday.

Edited by RippinSVT
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I generally agree. It is as much about the experience as the shooting. One thing I will add is that if I was a sponsor (Springfield, Sig, S&W, etc), I would want some exposure for my guns in Production/Metallic classes. I'm sure as hell not selling anymore M&P's or XD's if if Doug or Rob shoot Open with a gun that looks like it's fresh from a RoboCop movie. I'm selling guns when a perspective buyer see's Bruce Gray shoot a 2" group at 50 yards with a factory P320. Or when Leatham shoots a 480 on Barricades with an XD. Catering the finals to almost all Open shooters seems foolish, if I want to attract and keep sponsors. If there are only 4 production/metallic finalists, I can think of more big-name sponsors than that who've got money in the pot with guys that may finish 5-10th in met/prod. If I am FNH, and I put up $80k sponsor money, and Sevigny shoots 1868 and gets 5th place in Production, while people that shoot "Okay for Open" scores end up in finals, I'm gonna be pissed. We shouldn't cater to the sponsors, but we should even the playing field across the classifications so that a better representation of the top guys in prod/met can shoot Saturday.

Eggactly. That is why I think this new plan is foolish.

Based on what I heard this is currently proposed line up.

Top 16 Overall - 16 Open Shooters

Top 4 Senior - 4 Open Shooters

Top 4 Ladies - 4 Open Shooters

Top 4 Junior - 4 Open Shooters

Top 4 Metallic - 4 Metallic Shooters

Top 4 Production - 4 Production Shooters

So out of 36 Shooters 28 will be open, 4 metallic, and 4 Production. Never mind the fact that production is where most of the new shooters are, and it has almost as many entries as open at the last Cup.

And it really won't make the cup more exciting, than the normal match. Unless Doug K drops a shot into the 8 ring no one cares until Friday. And even then it is hardly a nail biter, that is the reason why 3 Gun Nation uses that shoot off system. That is exciting because everything is decided by a single match and it is long enough that positioning can change at any moment, but everything is close so you can see who is in the lead.

Now that I think of it, that is what the NRA should do. Keep it during the current schedule, normal shooting Wed-Fri determines who wins the Cup with the current cash prizes, and who goes to the shoot off. Do a longer single elimination speed oriented shoot off (no more faults, but with a Bianchi twist like perhaps a moving steel target) of the top 4 with the prize being a large check say $5,000-10,000. That makes getting to the top four and finally winning shoot off worth something.

They can easily make time for it by eliminating the "fun" shoot offs.

Edited by PPGMD
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At the modern day Bianchi Cup (where, unfortunately I had a hand in starting the trend) – the challenge is not to just hit the ten-ring like it was when the course was designed; but now the task, should you decide to accept it, is that you can never shoot a shot that isn’t a ten. If you do you may as well pack your bags and get on the plane. What started out as a great match twenty-five years ago with a stock gun is now a joke with the modern day "Bianchi Open Gun." Instead of the Bianchi Cup being the place to be in May, the only shooters who show up are Bianchi Specialists or old timers. It eventually kills the original intent of the Carnival Match. I’ve seen this happen to all the major matches. Bianchi Cup, Steel Challenge, The Sportsman’s Team Challenge, and The Masters. (What happened to the Masters is an even bigger bitch session; I’ll save that for another rant.) The Carnival Matches start out as a good idea, then after 5 or 6 years they deteriorate into a boring game of repetition. There are several reasons behind this. The first is that the courses of fire are never updated or changed to reflect competitor improvement in skill level. As soon as you know exactly what you have to do every time you go to the range, you can set about perfecting it. This starts the stagnation. Then we have to consider the temperament types of the competitors who are attracted to these events. Most of the Carnival Matches draw from IPSC shooters. Within IPSC shooters there are various types, some that prefer diversity and some that prefer repetition. The repetitive nature of all the Carnival Matches eventually draws shooters who excel at working out systems to effectively tackle those challenges. I am one of them. Most of my major wins were at Carnival Matches. After a few years of training by seriously motivated competitors, it’s difficult for the match to draw new blood; potential competitors are too intimidated by the evolved specialists.
The last problem is one of administration. Even if top competitors are involved in running the match, they resist change because of the "uncertainty factor." Once the match is established they are afraid the core group of shooters will stop coming if they change the course of fire. This seals the fate of the Carnival Match to the specialists. Brian Enos

Unfortunately any real changes that don't favor the "evolved specialist" will cause the match to collapse. The specialists will leave and there won't be enough production and metallic shooters to fill the void. The match has survived because of Tom's leadership and Larry's money.

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Do all 275 shooters go to the Cup with the expectation of winning it? If you are one of the Open shooters your odds are better. BUT lets face it ; The winner of the Cup is the shooter that posts the highest overall score; regardless of division. If we all thought we were going to win, 274 would be disappointed and probably 265 would be deluded. It is a graded shoot and it caters for all divisions. To win a Division or Grade is a real buzz. To finish in the top twenty overall and pick up a Division, Class or Grade win is a plus. It is your choice what Division you want to shoot in. Your grade is a measure of your ability.Division prizes go to 20th place in Open and Metallic and Fiftieth in Production. If Open is so easy we would see a lot more 1920's and the X's would be the decider. But we added the black center about 8 years ago to help the metallic shooters and everyone said it would make it too easy for Open shooters. That hasn't been the case in my observation.

Let's see how this year pans out. It looks like the main match is the first part and what you win stands.Quote:"The prizes are locked in". The second part is for who gets the trophies.

If you don't come and shoot it, you can't really criticize.It's like an election"If you don't vote, don't moan" I think, looking back on the format, that it might be fun.

As we say in our parts. Lets suck it and see.

Coatesy

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Do all 275 shooters go to the Cup with the expectation of winning it? If you are one of the Open shooters your odds are better. BUT lets face it ; The winner of the Cup is the shooter that posts the highest overall score; regardless of division. If we all thought we were going to win, 274 would be disappointed and probably 265 would be deluded. It is a graded shoot and it caters for all divisions. To win a Division or Grade is a real buzz. To finish in the top twenty overall and pick up a Division, Class or Grade win is a plus. It is your choice what Division you want to shoot in. Your grade is a measure of your ability.Division prizes go to 20th place in Open and Metallic and Fiftieth in Production. If Open is so easy we would see a lot more 1920's and the X's would be the decider. But we added the black center about 8 years ago to help the metallic shooters and everyone said it would make it too easy for Open shooters. That hasn't been the case in my observation.

Let's see how this year pans out. It looks like the main match is the first part and what you win stands.Quote:"The prizes are locked in". The second part is for who gets the trophies.

If you don't come and shoot it, you can't really criticize.It's like an election"If you don't vote, don't moan" I think, looking back on the format, that it might be fun.

As we say in our parts. Lets suck it and see.

Coatesy

Open isn't any easier, the whole field just moves up. I think it is safe to say that a person will generally shoot better with an Open gun than a Production gun, but the whole field moves up with Open, so it's moot. All I'm saying is that if the NRA thinks enough of the distinction between gun classes to award separate cups, and that if the iron sight classes are gaining as much popularity as Open, there should be more representation in the finals. I'll admit, there is a degree of selfishness here; if I shoot Metallic as I plan, I will be right in that "maybe" zone of 5th-15th. I'd sure like a shot at the finals. Also, and you guys don't have to agree with me, I think an 1880 with a metallic gun is more impressive than a 1910 with an Open gun. I've shot all the divisions and make that statement unbiased.

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Do all 275 shooters go to the Cup with the expectation of winning it? If you are one of the Open shooters your odds are better. BUT lets face it ; The winner of the Cup is the shooter that posts the highest overall score; regardless of division. If we all thought we were going to win, 274 would be disappointed and probably 265 would be deluded. It is a graded shoot and it caters for all divisions. To win a Division or Grade is a real buzz. To finish in the top twenty overall and pick up a Division, Class or Grade win is a plus. It is your choice what Division you want to shoot in. Your grade is a measure of your ability.Division prizes go to 20th place in Open and Metallic and Fiftieth in Production. If Open is so easy we would see a lot more 1920's and the X's would be the decider. But we added the black center about 8 years ago to help the metallic shooters and everyone said it would make it too easy for Open shooters. That hasn't been the case in my observation.

Let's see how this year pans out. It looks like the main match is the first part and what you win stands.Quote:"The prizes are locked in". The second part is for who gets the trophies.

If you don't come and shoot it, you can't really criticize.It's like an election"If you don't vote, don't moan" I think, looking back on the format, that it might be fun.

As we say in our parts. Lets suck it and see.

Coatesy

My interpretation, because there is not enough info right now, is that the awards are locked in after the first shoot and then the top shooters will shoot for the Bianchi Cup. At that point the match becomes an Open shooters match. I don't see much incentive for the top Production shooters shooting the second half of the match. I guess I just don't see that the format has really changed just more of the same but longer.

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I guess I just don't see that the format has really changed just more of the same but longer.

Which is why I don't think this change will have the desired effect of making Bianchi more media friendly. In fact I believe it will have the opposite affect.

I really think making the shoot off more exciting by having a longer course of fire, and actually worth something would have a much greater affect on the match's media presence. Now it isn't just a race for first, but fourth which is a position where there is a lot more jockeying, which can be edited and narrated right to create tension. And finally the shoot off itself for all the marbles errr lots of money.

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Tim

If the top Production and Metallic shooters don't take part in the shoot off they can't win the Bianchi Cup for their division. Sure, the overall will go to an open shooter, that is the nature of competition. The top score wins overall. As I said the Cup is different Divisions and Cups are awarded to the winners of each Division.

Chris

With the format change there is no Ironman anymore.

I think the NRA has just created a new problem for themselves. Filling the seats at the dinner :goof:

Here is a thought; how about the winner of the Cup is awarded to a different division every year. Start with Open, then next year Metallic and then Production and then back to Open and so on ad finitum.

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Here is a thought; how about the winner of the Cup is awarded to a different division every year. Start with Open, then next year Metallic and then Production and then back to Open and so on ad finitum.

Or just make the division awards of the same level as the open award.

At your typical USPSA or Steel Challenge match the Open division trophy/plaque is typically the same size as the other division trophy/plaque.

And that is without going into the difference in cash prize, the open cash prize is significantly higher than the other divisions at Bianchi.

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Yes if your last shoot is on Thursday will you pay for two more nights accommodation to attend the awards night dinner. The awards have always been mostly all about Open division. International , Senior, Ladies, Junior. I guess the give away guns help a lot but two days sitting around is a worry. That's really the only difference effecting me.

I knew Ironman had been chopped.

The Bianchi Cup to me has always been an Open contest with Metallic, Production and Ironman tacked on. Maybe it should stay an Open contest. One big cup plus several little ones.

Edited by Chris1911
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While we're on the topic, what kind of payouts does a top finish bring in the different divisions? I think I got like $100 last year for finishing like 40th lol.

They posted it one year.

I forget the exact amounts but IIRC Overall Winner will typically take at least $5k home, division winners $1-2k. I don't remember what the categories and all that take home.

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Tim

If the top Production and Metallic shooters don't take part in the shoot off they can't win the Bianchi Cup for their division. Sure, the overall will go to an open shooter, that is the nature of competition. The top score wins overall. As I said the Cup is different Divisions and Cups are awarded to the winners of each Division.

"The Action Shooting Committee has also approved changes to the 2016 Bianchi Cup format. Everyone will shoot the standard four event/1920 course of fire and all awards will be locked in. However, to compete for the “Cup” the top finishers in Open, Production, Metallic, Women, Juniors, and Seniors/Grand Seniors will fire an additional 1920 in one day. Their two scores will be added together to determine their final finish in the Grand Aggregate of 3840 possible points. An exciting finish will be available with the top two competitors shooting simultaneously on the upper mover to determine the overall champion."

Ok I misunderstood, where it says that all awards will be locked in, I took that to mean the division Cups and that the only award that was still up for grabs would be the Bianchi Cup in the Grand Aggregate.

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