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Rules Change Question for Prez Candidates


Smitty79

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I just listened to some USPSA Presidential candidate interviews on Ben Stoeger's podcast. They seemed to feel that we need to grow the sport. I'd like people's opinion on allowing local rules to help grow the sport.

I live about 20 minutes away from the premier firearms facility in Greater Portland. We have >10 bays that are appropriate for USPSA style matches. We have 8 different action shooting disciplines that hold monthly or more frequent, matches.

We are located in a suburban area. There are businesses and homes within a half mile of most of our ranges in most directions. A round leaving the range is more likely to be noticed or hurt someone, than it is at more rural clubs. So we have a rule that forbids the muzzle of a loaded firearm being pointed above the berm. This rule resulted in our club losing USPSA affiliation.

IDPA allows you to set safety points, so our club matches set the top of the berm as a safety point. We have an active IDPA program.

We also have an "outlaw" practical pistol match every month, where the only rule change from the current rule book is no muzzle above the berm. We don't get a lot of attendance, compared to affiliated clubs,despite the fact that the stages are always a lot of fun.

We are starting to see huge turn out at the other club, with a decent facility, near Portland. So far this year, they are averaging over 90 shooters a month. They run a great match, but it's getting too crowded. I shoot it every month. But I took a colleague from work out to watch a match. He decided not to come back because it was too much time standing around and not enough shooting.

From listening to the interviews, members want to grow USPSA. They also consider our matches to be too crowded. To grow our sport, we need to add facilities. To add facilities, maybe we need to look at some local rule variations for level 1 matches.

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Over the berm rules, you can keep that. We are training to shoot majors Area amd National Matches or that's the biggest match we can shoot. Over the brem rules dont apply to USPSA Maches. Ones club rule have no bussiness working into the USPSA rule book. The Club that has rules about over the berm muzzle DQ stuff will be and should be shooting outlaw matches. Muzzle over berms is not a safety issue, it's a range location question.

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I'm not adventurous to post this kind of thing on Doodie. I've edited it to make it a rules question instead of political.

Cool What rules are you proposing to change? And you may want to use the term "Level 1 exemption or exception. "Local Rule" is a term that causes "discussion" on it's own merit.

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought the main thread was crowded matches. I see now that it is local rules. In that case, I think what we have is fine. I want to go to a USPSA match and know that the USPSA rulebook is the controlling force, only.

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I guess you could advertise your match as "similar to USPSA except the berm" rule. But you can't call it a USPSA match. If I travelled across the country for vacation, and shot your local USPSA match, I want to know the rules ahead of time, know the range commands are the same. Kinda like getting a cheeseburger at McDonalds, it's comforting. I don't want to have to worry about knowing a new set of rules for every club out there, and if I might get DQ'd for a non-USPSA rule. I would not support a rule change in the direction you propose.

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The fundamental problem is not the club location..... It's the location of the finger.

If the finger DQ was called as it should (instead of ignoring the violation or issuing a "warning") the culprits would change their bad habit and rounds would not be leaving the range.

.02

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The fundamental problem is not the club location..... It's the location of the finger.

If the finger DQ was called as it should (instead of ignoring the violation or issuing a "warning") the culprits would change their bad habit and rounds would not be leaving the range.

.02

Exactly

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The fundamental problem is not the club location..... It's the location of the finger.

If the finger DQ was called as it should (instead of ignoring the violation or issuing a "warning") the culprits would change their bad habit and rounds would not be leaving the range.

.02

Exactly
agreed also

That sounds better to me anyway, Thank you G.J.

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Just a note: The no politics theme of Brian's forum extends to USPSA politics. The questions you are asking belong on the USPSA (I know) Forum. http://www.uspsa.org/forums/

(mentioned in part of a previous mod post: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=195192&p=2163596)

Or Doodie for the more adventurous...

I agree. We will discuss this on the Mod forum for a bit....

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The fundamental problem is not the club location..... It's the location of the finger.

If the finger DQ was called as it should (instead of ignoring the violation or issuing a "warning") the culprits would change their bad habit and rounds would not be leaving the range.

.02

Exactly
agreed also

That sounds better to me anyway, Thank you G.J.

Agreed... Except for the guy I DQ'ed for an AD over a berm while reloading at a steel challenge match. He had kitchen-table-gunsmithed his Glock so that it fired without the trigger being pulled when the gun was shocked (think seating a magazine hard).

I was skeptical at first, but in a separate bay, after the match was over, he repeated the AD with fingers nowhere near the trigger.

Guns will break and malfunction. You don't necessarily need a finger in the wrong place to have an accident that shuts down your club. If above the berm is not a safe direction, the range isn't appropriate for high muzzle reloads regardless of how strict one is with enforcing the finger rule. The rest is between USPSA and the club.

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At World Shoot XII in Cebu, the Phillipines, there was a local rule like this one that was enforced for the match. This range had people living up the side of the mountain that was the backstop. Raise the gun 35 or 40 degrees and you were pointed at homes.

Definitely not "optimal" (or even really "acceptable"), but it did happen.

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At World Shoot XII in Cebu, the Phillipines, there was a local rule like this one that was enforced for the match. This range had people living up the side of the mountain that was the backstop. Raise the gun 35 or 40 degrees and you were pointed at homes.

Definitely not "optimal" (or even really "acceptable"), but it did happen.

Indeed, this is a common issue at IPSC matches run outside the US. I started out shooting IPSC in Europe... when I first shot in the US, I was astounded at the way folks were allowed to point their muzzle above the berm.

Maybe run your match under IPSC rules?

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Went to qualify (rifle) in Korea and they had a Korean army private sitting about 5ft or so from the side of the target to score. Nobody got shot but I guess it might have been a way to train to be calm under fire. That was back in 58, no idea if it is still done that way presently.

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If I recall, the proper procedure is to write USPSA HQ and ask for a specific exemption. That will allow you to have a "local" rule and still be a legal USPSA match. Of course that means you have to present your case well enough that HQ deems the exemption worth issuing. I know that LEGAL issues are usually simpler.

Why not install some type of baffle to raise your berms?

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The fundamental problem is not the club location..... It's the location of the finger.

If the finger DQ was called as it should (instead of ignoring the violation or issuing a "warning") the culprits would change their bad habit and rounds would not be leaving the range.

.02

Is that really the case? From my study of the rules, it seems that you can finish the reload, and cook off an early shot as you are rebuilding your grip and prepping the trigger, and the only thing that makes it dq-able is whether or not the round goes over the berm. If it hits high on the berm, no harm, no foul.

The fact is that rounds do go over the berms pretty regularly.

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Local rule allowance for muzzle over the berm I can deal with. But how far does it go?

What about a club that didn't allow drawing from a holster? Or wouldn't permit running with a loaded gun?

At some point it stops being USPSA.

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3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

Considering the above, I don't think it's much use to worry about a club that didn't allow drawing from a holster or wouldn't permit running with a loaded gun. They wouldn't get written consent from El Prez, and would definitely stop being a USPSA match.

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3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

Considering the above, I don't think it's much use to worry about a club that didn't allow drawing from a holster or wouldn't permit running with a loaded gun. They wouldn't get written consent from El Prez, and would definitely stop being a USPSA match.

I agree with you now, just a question about the potential slippery slope if local rules are allowed.

I'm not in favor of local rules for the record.

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