#5 or #6 for Besk Knockdown

[richardschennberg]

A couple side matches in Kentucky had some far out, and perhaps slightly heavy, steel targets. Depending on the distance, more choke (M, IM, or F) might get enough pellets on target. For 40 yards, is it better to use size #5 and maintain more velocity, or size #6 to get a few more pellets and a denser pattern?

I'd appreciate some advice or even ballistics data before I open a 25 lb. bag of #5 or #6 shot!

Thanks,

Richard

Schennberg.com

[glockster96]

Hi Richard,

I've started using the Federal Heavy Field Load #6s from Wally World for steel. It puts it down with authority and it's cheap and reliable. I'm using an IC with a 21" Benelli.

[George]

Richard,

More of any size shot on the plate is always the ticket. That being said, 40 yards is nearing the outer envelope of any size small round pellet retaining it’s energy. IMHO, using a tighter choke (M) is always the overall best ticket on real long stuff. OTOH, if you can, shoot buckshot at those forty yarders, then by all means do so, then you can stick with the IC and just forget about using larger shot than #6 at all.

Myself, I am a believer in real tight chokes (M) and 3 Dram, 7.5 shot for everything. The IC choke you are using will give better results with #5 shot, but not as good a result as #6, or even 7.5 in a tighter choke. BTW, if you use a modified choke on long stuff the loading won’t need to be very stout and you can shoot much faster.

One other thought. The smaller the shot, the better the chance you have of getting a single pellet into a frangible clay at any distance. Simple law of chance, more shot in the air, more chance of a hit, less random holes in the pattern.

Stick with the six, get a set of thread in chokes and do whatever is required for the course. The downside of the tight choke is shooting slower on the close stuff when it’s in the gun. But go ahead and launch a few extra shots at reluctant steel and the advantage becomes apparent on stages with long distance, or real heavy steel.

I will stack my choice of light load of small shot through a mod choke against a heavier load of heavier shot in a wider choke, anytime, at any distance, under any conditions (but not against buckshot!).

--

Regards

Edited March 1, 2005 by George

[sargenv]

How about a medium load of larger shot at long ranges with a tighter choke? I had good luck on steel out to about 40 yards with an ounce of 4's being more reliable than the 6's at that same distance. I think my velocity was in the 1300 fps range but with only an ounce of shot, recoil wasn't all that bad. This would translate to 3 1/4 dram, one ounce loads that are common in 7.5 and 8's. Generally you won't find a one ounce load in 4's or 6's unless you are shooting a 20 gauge. In that gauge, you have to make up for velocity with a larger pellet size.

If you are allowed to shoot Buck, then by all means. I've been thinking of dragging out some #2's I have a bag of and doing some trials with that same load as above. That would of course only give me 87 pellets per ounce(~5 gr per pellet)

Here are some ballistics I've dug up for comparison on shot sizes common to the game.

For 7.5's, starting at 1295 fps, @ 20 yards, you have 910 fps left of vel and 2.3 ft/lbs of energy per pellet, extend that range to 40 yards, and that velocity drops to 705 fps and the energy drops to 1.4 ft/lbs.

With 6's, and the same start velocity of 1295, @ 20 yards it has 960 fps with 4.0 ft/lbs of energy, @ 40 yards, it has 760 fps with an energy of 2.5 ft/lbs.

With 5's, all else being the same, the velocity @ 20 yards is 970 fps, with 5.4 ft/lbs, @ 40 yards, velocity drop is down to 780 fps and energy is at 3.5 ft/lbs.

With 4's, all else being the same, the velocity @ 20 yards is 990 fps, with 7.1 ft/lbs, @ 40 yards, velocity drop is down to 800 fps and energy is at 4.6 ft/lbs.

Still almost double that of 6's and 3x that of 7.5's

Pellet count for 7.5's = 346 (each pellet weighs 1.2644 gr)

" " " 6's = 222 (each pellet weighs 1.9707 gr)

" " " 5's = 171 (each pellet weighs 2.5584 gr)

" " " 4's = 135 (each pellet weighs 3.2407 gr)

So say we need a minor load to knock down steel (125 PF)

With 7.5's we need at least 108 pellet hits@20 yards(31%)and 140@40 yards(40.4%)

With 6's we need at least 66 pellet hits @20(29.7%) and 84@40 (37.8%)

With 5's we need at least 50 pellet hits @20(29.2%) and 63@40 (36.8%)

With 4's we need at least 39 pellet hits @20(28.8%) and 48@40 (35.5%)

Statistically at least, we show that at 40 yards, we do need at least a modified choke to effectively knock down the steel (George, your observation of the guy shooting heavy 4's with an open choke was spot on according to the above data).

Initially I did not add #5's, but after re-reading the question, I thought I'd add it in so Richard could make up his mind on what he wanted to do. It seems that as the shot size goes up, it needs a slightly smaller percentage of the pattern to impact the steel in question.

Another part of the equation I didn't add in here was shot hardness. Softer shot will not always pattern as well as harder shot, so that should be weighed into your decision as well. You may get more fliers with soft shot since during recoil it will deform more readily than the harder stuff.

All the ballistics that I quoted above was garnered from the Lyman Shotshell reloading handbook, 4th edition. In addition to the loading data, it has some pretty good articles in it about shotgun ballistics including data on buckshot and slugs and the various ballistics and velocities of various factory loads and shot sizes.

I still tend to depend more on tighter chokes and larger shot sizes but with equal payloads and velocities. The guy shooting the lighter recoiling stuff will generally come back on target faster than the guy blasting away with full power ounce and a quarter 3 3/4 dram hunting loads.

Maybe I'm into this just a tad too much and need to actually just shoot

Vince

[George]

Maybe I'm into this just a tad too much

Not at all, Vince. That is some great data and it certainly proves the worth of patterning for the task at hand.

I especially like the huge number of pellets in 7.5 (346) compared to the larger shot size pellet counts. Much better choice for shooting at clays when a stage includes them along with steel.

Also interesting to note is the less than 5% difference in actual knockdown power from #4 to #7 shot at 40 yards in the same choke. The math coincides with my practical experience here. In other words, it’s not the size of the shot hitting the plate, but the “total weight“ of shot hitting the plate that gets the job done PERIOD

BTW, Buck is still what you want to use on tough steel way out there if the match allows it.

--

Regards,

[sargenv]

This is a little off subject, but I knew a guy who used to use #7.5 lead shot on Ducks within 35 yards when using lead was legal. His argument was the same, pellet density in a pattern was his reason for doing so. The # of pellets inside a certain circle at the range specified was that much more dense than a load of #4's-6's. I'd always used 4's and 5's since "that's what Dad used". I never got to experiment since they placed a ban on lead shot for waterfowl pretty soon after that. *shrug* oh well..

Vince

[EricW]

sargenv,

Thank you for digging up the data. That was a VERY informative post!

[Putty]

Yah theres a good idea...."Lets ban lead, increase the number of crippled and lame dead waterfowl, tenfold, by enforecing non-lead shot".

Thats why I hunt Chukar and Huns with high base 7.5 shot lead.

[sargenv]

It took some time for the ballistics people to catch up, but it's not really so much the fact that steel is less deadly, so much as people were using lead shot beyond the range they should have been, and they were still using steel shot like lead. I load my own steel and have since the lead shot ban came out. I've always been a step ahead of dad when it comes to more range etc. After all the years he's been using steel, he's finally realized that a lighter charge launched faster is the ticket with steel. Kent finally came out with a load that pushes to 1550 fps. I've been loading for years an ounce and more recently an ounce and an eighth to 1400-1500 fps respectively.

The days of heavy shot payloads and slower velocities just don't apply to steel. With Bismuth and Tungsten though, we're getting a return to better loads, unfortunately they are very expensive. One thing that most people do not know is that an ounce of any steel pellets is the same pellet count equivalent to 1 3/8 ounces of lead. So launch that ounce faster and you get comparable impact.

Vince

[benny hill]

For steel past 20 yds. 00 tactical buck is the only way to go with a I.C. ck.

[texasag93]

I TELL YOU THIS... cynder bore and 6 or 7.5 or 8 or anything under 000 wouldn't budge a heavy plate at 20yds. just made then sway a little Barrel is getting chokes as I type this. Will have to see how it performs with chokes. I am of the belief that tighter choke putting more pellets on target. I will be using a Mod. choke on longer steel unless slugs shoot poorly through it. TXAG

[litman252]

texasag93,

How is that barrel working with the new chokes and where did you have the work done???

Thanks,

Tony

[texasag93]

Barrel is working well. Wish I could say the same for me. I couldn't hit sh#$! Mr. Benny Hill can atest to that. The barrel is the Benelli 18.5" one. My friend borrowed it that match and did fine with it. Guess it was just me. THe choke tubes were installed by a local gunsmith in Bryan, TX. TXAG

[pdg45acp]

I was in a very "Eye Opening" 3 gun match last month.

I say "Eye Opening" because I watched at least a half dozen good shotgunners have trouble knocking the steel plates off the "Texas Star".

At about 18 yards an Improved Cyl 12 ga shooting 1 1/8 oz, 2 ¾", 3 dram, 8 shot wouldn't "consistently" knock the plates off, even if the plate was in the center of the pattern. This is the same ammo that Wally World usually has good deals on.

Note, and sanity check, on this same Texas Star, a 9mm shooting 115 grain WWB will knock the plates off every time.

The guys with full chokes or Heavy Field loads or magnum rounds could take the plates off with no problem.

So, just as a precaution, I'm bringing some Heavy Field or maybe some magnums loads to the next match, anything more than 3 dram should do.. maybe..

[rmfield]

Just an opinion, but if you are going to put steel plates at 40 yards on a shotgun stage, you should allow buckshot.

I don't think the 9mm calibration technique makes much sense for shotgun plates as it doesn't take the shotgun's pattern into account. Its just an old USPSA hold over rule. Shotgun plates should be calibrated with a shotgun. I think a center pattern hit with an 1 1/8 oz, 3 dram wally world load out of an IC shotgun makes more sense. If this doesn't reliably take the plate down, the plate should be moved in, set lighter, or replaced with a frangible target.

...just an opinion .

[pdg45acp]

...................................  I think a center pattern hit with an 1 1/8 oz, 3 dram wally world load out of an IC shotgun makes more sense.  If this doesn't reliably take the plate down, the plate should be moved in, set lighter, or replaced with a frangible target.

...just an opinion .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree..

They should adopt a a shotgun calibration technique that uses this wally world stuff as a baseline for knocking steel down, or better yet make it 1oz/3 dram.. there are a lot of dove loads like that and I've seen a lot of people at matches with these 1oz loads

[George]

Also agreed, calibrate with 3 Dram, 1 OZ # 6 to 7.5 through a 21-22" bbl with IC choke. No go down, either allow 00 buck, or move it on in.

--

Regards

[benny hill]

If I cannot use buck I use 3 1/4 1 1/4 #5 on long range steel

[Larry White]

At the nationals(Reno) I asked for a calibration check on a shotgun popper. They shot it with a 20 ga, 1oz of 6s. Of course it fell.----Larry

[sargenv]

I will add that those Wally World shells, while cheap, are generally utilizing cheap components. They generally put softer shot in those loads than they do in something like STS or AA clays target loads. As I said above in my longer post, softer shot will more readily dissipate due to deforming easier inside the transition from barrel to the air, and then the pattern will in turn become a bit more open. Sometimes that is what you want when shooting flying clays, you might utilize that golden BB, but with plates and stationary targets, you want as much pellet concentration as possible, hence tighter chokes, hard shot and a nice center hit on plates, poppers, or whatever. You can make #8's work for you if you have hard shot and a tight choke. I prefer something bigger, 6's and 7.5's if possible. I can live with 1 ounce of shot, so long as the pattern is travelling fast enough and tight enough (think 20 gauge 1 ounce loads say 6's, 1180 fps or so).

I tend to load my 1 ounce loads to 1290 or so.

Vince