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LII Sectional match scoring issues


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(I removed the specific reference to what match I was talking about so the topic does't become a debate on if I am trying to shit on the Match Director, which I was not. However, the issue of posting scores and then later changing them is a valid issue that I believe is outside of the current USPSA guidelines and worth discussing.)

I’m not a rule monger or looking to arbitrarily start a conflict but there seems to be a flaw in a level II match scoring procedure. I’m also not out to go after anyone so I’m not posting screen caps of emails since most include personal email addresses and phone numbers that I would rather not take the time to redact. That being said, everything I wrote below is in fact a quote from those exchanges.

Just to note, the match itself was well setup with challenging stages and a friendly staff. The stage design was interesting and created several unique challenges that made the event fun. The opening brief including a fairly aggressive brief about it being a Level 2 match and thereby it would be RO’ed accordingly and that no warnings were going to be given for fingers on triggers, 180s and the like. It seemed very professional run from my vantage but I only shot on Friday.

The problem at hand:

The match ended on Sunday, scores were posted and the 1 hour required by the rules elapsed.

On Monday, an email came out from the match staff which included the following sentence:

“I understand there are some corrections to scores that need to be made…”

When I inquired about changes and if the scores were complete as they stood on Sunday I got the following answer on Monday afternoon from the match staff:

“The scores were posted at the completion of shooting yesterday, the one hour period started [then] and is past. There will be corrections made to Division and PF as the scores are finalized before being sent to USPSA for Official posting”

This seemed to be contradictory to my understanding of the USPSA rules, specifically section 9.8.2 - 9.8.4, so then I asked for clarification if the scores posted at 14:07 on Sunday the 17th were were “final” or not.

The answer I received:

“The answer is no. Those are not the final scores. Stats is working to [get] them corrected. Since this is a volunteer job it may take a few days to get it corrected. The “Final” version will be uploaded to USPSA.

Tuesday, a new version of the scores posted to practicscore with several errors. I only had visibility on my division (Production) so I don't know if the errors are perpetuated throughout the divisions.

That’s just what I can see but either the process or the rules governing it seems broken to me.

-This is my main point, do the rules, as they are written, properly address the limitations of digital match scoring and its associated nuances?

-If scores are changed after the end of the match, what is the process for notifying competitors that they need to RE-CHECK/VALIDATE the scores and what are the time constraints for that? If the second change to scores introduces a new error that affects someone that walked away from the match thinking everything was good to go how does that person find out there is a new problem?

Nothing in the USPSA rule book that I can find addresses any review period other than the original 1 hour unless the procedure is posted before hand by the MD (9.8.4) so how is this issue being handled elsewhere and what is the USPSA stance on it? Election year might be a good time to work some kinks out of the rule book.

Perhaps I’m missing something

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I was only a participant in this match, but here's my 2 cents.

What you described seems to be cleaning up some verifiable clerical issues, rather than challenges to scoring of points and stage times.

I don't have any problems with this.

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For further clarification

(Assume this is a cash prize match)

Scores come out on Sunday and everyone is there to see them so they agree with their respective position/score and all go home:

Grand Master Flash, a Prod GM takes 4th in the match and 4th GM so he doesn't get any cash

Charlie Alpha wins PROD-A and and $150

Delta Alpha takes second in PROD -A and $100

Mike Alpha takes third in PROD-A and $50

Then the scores are changed on Tuesday because of some errors discovered after the 1 hour window and due to a clerical error or other honest mistake Grand Master Flash somehow becomes a Production-A shooter. So now the stack looks like this:

Grand Master Flash, (now a production A) wins Production-A and and $150

Charlie Alpha takes second in PROD-A and $100

Delta Alpha takes third in PROD-A and $50

Mike Alpha is now 4th and gets nothing

All of these guys left the range on Sunday thinking everything was legit. So who's responsibility is it to identify the mistake(s)?

Does the responsibility rest with the shooter who is unaware any change was even made?

What is the current standard procedure (formal or commonly accepted practice) for notifying competitors of score changes and establishing new time frames for corrections?

Is the email downstream from the USPSA mail bot with the final results considered the actual final cross check of the scores?

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I am the MD for the match in question and I want to be very clear, the only changes being made to the results are the "official scores" being updated to the posted scores available.

In this high technology erra it appears people expect perfection from an imperfect process. The posted scores are for the convenience for shooters to find errors and ask for corrections.

The OFFICIAL scores are the paper copies we sign after each run. They are better known as backup sheets. Since they are the only copy with a signature they are the official scores. The declared power factor and division is clarified at chrono and throughout the match by ROs.

When a clerical error occurs in the digital scores we retreat to the official papers to make corrections.

That is where we currently are with the match results. Repairing the clerical errors.

We need specifics when we are asked to make corrections. We follow up a request by reviewing the official scores and this takes time. Here is an example of a recent communication with a shooter and staff.

"There was no score recorded in the Nook for E. [Redacted] on stage 8. I found the paper backup:






Stage 6 is a DNF, I'm guessing you were rained out and did not come back to shoot."

I will make any reasonable requests for transparency available to those that desire it. Not understanding the rules and process can cause uncessary confusion.

thank you.

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Remember without the convenience of the nook it used to be months before a 300 shooter match had any results at all.

We are all adapting. Leaving on the last day of the match before anything is torn down expecting to read the final results on the way home has a long way to come.

I personally notified everyone via registration email and social media of the current results and how to handle errors. This is the only process I am aware of for conducting scoring. If there is a better way it will be assimilated.

Thanks again.

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Until I ran stats for SC state I had no idea what all it takes to do stats. It's a tough job and we did have to make some corrections after the match. We had two shooters with exactly the same hits and time on the same stage. We know that wasn't right and had to go back to paper to correct the error in the NST.

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I don't believe that there is a rule that states when the MD must declare the match is over. It could be at the end of the 1 hour period or a year later. Every MD I know wants to make sure that the scores are as perfect as possible.

That being said, I do disagree with the MDS comment that a 300 person match takes months to get the scores completed using paper. I have routinely done paper and electronic stats for matches larger than 300 people and have scores posted usually within 60 minutes of the last shot, and have even done paper scores and had them finished within 15 minutes of last shot at a match with 24 stages and almost 400 people.

You usually either get correct scores or quick scores though. Please let the MD know which you would prefer to have, and then volunteer to help in stats at your next match and see if you can improve their process.

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That's correct. 6.5.3 just states the match has ended when the MD has declared the scores are final. For the competitors, they may be more interested in 9.8.2 and 9.8.3 (provisional results published after all competitors have finished and posted conspicuous place at the range; if competitor detects an error, has 1 hour to file appeal with Stats).

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Personally, I feel that if someone didn't check their scores, and they're incorrect, that's too bad, and the awards stand.

I'm of the opinion that the incorrect scores are what should be uploaded to USPSA (and PractiScore), but for the purposes of submitting an activity report, they should be corrected.

Just because someone had the wrong score in the system (but it's correct on paper) doesn't mean they should be penalized if it affects the classification percentage.

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I see it as Scores are final one hour after last one was in, Following the match from afar, it all seemed kind of up in the air through tuesday... peoples names weren't even correct.. don't know the circumstances at this point but didn't seem quite as speedy as I have seen many others ran.

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