nelly Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Hi All, Having a slight dilemma: I'm pretty sure about this rule # but I'd like to know if I'm in the area. After I (RO) scored a Target, it was immediately pasted by one of the squad members. The shooter want's to appeal the score. I... A. Call the Match Director for an arbitration appeal B. Call the Range Master for a Target Scoring appeal C. Deny the appeal D. Award a Reshoot due to premature pasting I would deny the appeal based on 9.1.3 which reads in part-If following the scoring of a target by any ASSIGNED RO, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than an RO, the score will stand as called and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called. Thanks, and Standing By.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 The Match Director has no authority. Your call was correct. It's the shooter's responsibility to keep up with the scoring. The RO(s) need to keep their stage running. If the shooter is too "busy" to keep up, too bad. First, the CRO should be involved. The next step is to call the RM to finalize the issue. That gives the shooter every opportunity to make his case (even if it's wrong). This is why the ROs should avoid pasting targets unless a target has been forgotten. Fewer problems. Sorry to sound so callous toward the shooter, but the match must move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hi All, Having a slight dilemma: I'm pretty sure about this rule # but I'd like to know if I'm in the area. After I (RO) scored a Target, it was immediately pasted by one of the squad members. The shooter want's to appeal the score. I... A. Call the Match Director for an arbitration appeal B. Call the Range Master for a Target Scoring appeal C. Deny the appeal D. Award a Reshoot due to premature pasting I would deny the appeal based on 9.1.3 which reads in part-If following the scoring of a target by any ASSIGNED RO, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than an RO, the score will stand as called and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called. Thanks, and Standing By.... Hmmm, That sounds a lot like question 34 on the RO re-cert exam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hi All, Having a slight dilemma: I'm pretty sure about this rule # but I'd like to know if I'm in the area. After I (RO) scored a Target, it was immediately pasted by one of the squad members. The shooter want's to appeal the score. I... A. Call the Match Director for an arbitration appeal B. Call the Range Master for a Target Scoring appeal C. Deny the appeal D. Award a Reshoot due to premature pasting I would deny the appeal based on 9.1.3 which reads in part-If following the scoring of a target by any ASSIGNED RO, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than an RO, the score will stand as called and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called. Thanks, and Standing By.... Hmmm, That sounds a lot like question 34 on the RO re-cert exam Hope it's not. If you can't make your own decisions, you probably shouldn't be an RO...and it takes too long to get the answer on BE, so you'd be holding up the match every time you ask us for the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Yeah, this sounds like a test question. Not a good idea to post it here. I would take it down, discuss it with your instructor, and turn it in. If you don't like the outcome or still don't understand it, then post that on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 This reinforces 9.1.3, either rule will work. (or both). 9.6.4 Any challenge to a score or penalty must be appealed to the Range Officer by the competitor (or his delegate) prior to the subject target being painted, patched, or reset, failing which such challenges will not be accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hope it's not. If you can't make your own decisions, you probably shouldn't be an RO...and it takes too long to get the answer on BE, so you'd be holding up the match every time you ask us for the answer. I am curious: do you take the exam closed book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 The Match Director has no authority. Your call was correct. It's the shooter's responsibility to keep up with the scoring. The RO(s) need to keep their stage running. If the shooter is too "busy" to keep up, too bad. First, the CRO should be involved. The next step is to call the RM to finalize the issue. That gives the shooter every opportunity to make his case (even if it's wrong). This is why the ROs should avoid pasting targets unless a target has been forgotten. Fewer problems. Sorry to sound so callous toward the shooter, but the match must move on. Hi George! Isn't the MD the RM at a local match? I realize arbs etc are primarily a major match function but saying, " the MD has no authority" is a little too general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The Match Director has no authority. Your call was correct. It's the shooter's responsibility to keep up with the scoring. The RO(s) need to keep their stage running. If the shooter is too "busy" to keep up, too bad. First, the CRO should be involved. The next step is to call the RM to finalize the issue. That gives the shooter every opportunity to make his case (even if it's wrong). This is why the ROs should avoid pasting targets unless a target has been forgotten. Fewer problems. Sorry to sound so callous toward the shooter, but the match must move on. Hi George! Isn't the MD the RM at a local match? I realize arbs etc are primarily a major match function but saying, " the MD has no authority" is a little too general? Not George but according to 7.1.6: .....The Range Master is usually appointed by and works with the Match Director, however, in respect of USPSA sanctioned Level III and Nationals matches, the appointment of the Range Master is subject to the prior written approval of the Director of NROI. In practice, yes they're often one and the same at a Level 1 match; by rule however they aren't assumed to be one and the same, and by best practice they probably shouldn't be the same person...... There's a separation of powers built into the arbitration process -- where the RM makes a ruling, and if the shooter wants to appeal to arbitration, it's up to the MD to pick the arbitration panel. I'm thinking there's a reason for that -- so the RM can't pick a panel that will necessarily vote his way...... It's also a good idea to develop more folks -- so if you for instance ever step down as match director, you might offer to RM your old match for the new MD, as a way of helping out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 7.3.1 For Level I and Level II matches a single person may be appointed to be both the Match Director and the Range Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Hope it's not. If you can't make your own decisions, you probably shouldn't be an RO...and it takes too long to get the answer on BE, so you'd be holding up the match every time you ask us for the answer. I am curious: do you take the exam closed book? No, the exam is open book for both initial certification and recertification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I was asking Teros how he takes the exam ;-).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 7.3.1 For Level I and Level II matches a single person may be appointed to be both the Match Director and the Range Master. OK -- and your point is? It's still not automatic -- someone needs to make that decision...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 7.3.1 For Level I and Level II matches a single person may be appointed to be both the Match Director and the Range Master. OK -- and your point is?It's still not automatic -- someone needs to make that decision...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Pm sent You know damn well what my point is. Besides like you said, you're not George jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Pm sent You know damn well what my point is. Besides like you said, you're not George jones. How long have you two been married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Pm sent You know damn well what my point is. Besides like you said, you're not George jones. That's not how discussion boards work -- if you want to only hear from George, send him an e-mail or pm. Otherwise the rest of us peons might chime in as well...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Pm sent You know damn well what my point is. Besides like you said, you're not George jones. How long have you two been married? If this were the case I would have been in prison long ago for capital murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Sarge, I think we all know your point but I'm sure you know George's point also. He is purely going off the rules, not factoring in every single situation that we have at matches such as same person - multiple hats, etc. As he said, the MD has no authority so with the MD hat on, that statement is correct. If they wear another hat that says RM, then it goes from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 George is totally correct. The MD has no authority in this instance. The RM does. The fact that the MD and RM may be co-located within the same carbon-based unit is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I didn't bring a purse, so I can't participate in the girl-fight, but I was involved in exactly this sort of incident at the 2012 nationals. Bottom line is that if the target gets pasted before the shooter sees it, too bad for him. It's not grounds for a re-shoot. It is grounds for the squad to pull their heads out of their butts and allow the shooter an opportunity to see a target with a mike or a no-shoot hit. But it's still the shooter's responsibility to follow the scoring if he's interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I didn't bring a purse, so I can't participate in the girl-fight, but I was involved in exactly this sort of incident at the 2012 nationals. Bottom line is that if the target gets pasted before the shooter sees it, too bad for him. It's not grounds for a re-shoot. It is grounds for the squad to pull their heads out of their butts and allow the shooter an opportunity to see a target with a mike or a no-shoot hit. But it's still the shooter's responsibility to follow the scoring if he's interested.(Purse )It is interesting that you posted this. I got 1/2 credit for this question on the RO exam because I denied the appeal but cited the wrong rule. This was the one I pointed to: 9.6.3 A competitor (or his delegate) who fails to verify a target during the scoring process loses all right of appeal in respect of scoring that target. In the question, the target was scored by a match official and immediately patched. The question was silent as to whether or not the shooter/delegate was present at the scoring. My take is that it was fairly obvious that the s/d was not present and as such fell victim to 9.6.3. I think that would hold up in court as well as 9.3.1/9.6.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The shooter and the RO finish at the same spot at the end of the stage. No reason a shooter can't follow the RO around to look at targets. At locals, I usually go pick up my mags and then go back to my bag. At a major I'm stuck to the RO's hip (or even walking ahead of him if there is a particular target I'm worried about due to a called iffy shot or poor shot call). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Goofy s#!T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Pm sent You know damn well what my point is. Besides like you said, you're not George jones. How long have you two been married? If this were the case I would have been in prison long ago for capital murder. I don't appreciate that sort of language...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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