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Kimber 1911 9mm


wbyrd01
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After posting this topic (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=214067) and getting some great advice to pass on the purchase, I found a Kimber Stainless Target II for what I think was a great price of $800 shipped. I plan on shooting it as a 9mm until I start getting close to a major match, then I'll switch it over to 40. I'm just hoping that the breech face actually does accept a 40 case. I bought six Dawson 9mm magazines and the Dawson Ice magwell for it. I was very happy to learn that I can use my 45 magazines to run 40 since I already have a bunch of those.

I also already had an STI hammer and sear that I won in a match a few months ago. I'm wondering if these will be much better than what's in the gun from Kimber. Any opinions on this, or should I just switch them out and find out for myself?

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After posting this topic (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=214067) and getting some great advice to pass on the purchase, I found a Kimber Stainless Target II for what I think was a great price of $800 shipped. I plan on shooting it as a 9mm until I start getting close to a major match, then I'll switch it over to 40. I'm just hoping that the breech face actually does accept a 40 case.

I'm confused: is this a 9mm slide or .40? They are not the same and as far as I know, .40 brass will not fit the cutout on a 9mm slide. And BTW, 9mm brass won't work on a .40 slide because it would be too loose and not extract properly.

I have a Trojan 1911 that has both a 9mm slide/barrel and a .40 slide/barrel, but they are separate assemblies.

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I have 1911's in 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP. I've shoot all of them in SSTK. Had I not stumbled across a smoken hot deal on pre-Series II Kimber that had a Kart barrel and trigger job I'd have just stayed with the 45ACP for SSTK. The 40 is fun but not really necessary for SSTK.

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After posting this topic (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=214067) and getting some great advice to pass on the purchase, I found a Kimber Stainless Target II for what I think was a great price of $800 shipped. I plan on shooting it as a 9mm until I start getting close to a major match, then I'll switch it over to 40. I'm just hoping that the breech face actually does accept a 40 case.

I'm confused: is this a 9mm slide or .40? They are not the same and as far as I know, .40 brass will not fit the cutout on a 9mm slide. And BTW, 9mm brass won't work on a .40 slide because it would be too loose and not extract properly.

I have a Trojan 1911 that has both a 9mm slide/barrel and a .40 slide/barrel, but they are separate assemblies.

This is a Kimber 9mm. I was under the belief that Kimber cuts their breech faces to 40, even in their 9mm's. I should only need to replace the barrel, bushing, and magazines to be able to switch over to 40. At least that's what I've read on several forums. I might need to replace the ejector and extractor, but I'll have to shoot the gun to know for sure.

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I have 1911's in 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP. I've shoot all of them in SSTK. Had I not stumbled across a smoken hot deal on pre-Series II Kimber that had a Kart barrel and trigger job I'd have just stayed with the 45ACP for SSTK. The 40 is fun but not really necessary for SSTK.

I thought about sticking to my SA 1911 in 45 but wanted to get a 9mm SS for shooting in the local Tuesday Night Steel match as well as for the cost savings in ammo. Even reloading, 9mm is just so much cheaper than 45. Being able to also shoot 40 is just an added bonus for me.

Edited by wbyrd01
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I have a kimber 9mm also and read the same thing. But I took an empty 40 case/no primer, slid it up into the breech face, it will not pass. But if you place it inside of the breech face, it will fit.

The bottom open is about 0.15 too tight. Also remove the firing pin and look through the firing pin hole from the back of the slide, when you have the empty case in the breech face. Can you see directly through the primer hole of the case? If you can, great , you only need to widen the bottom where the extractor is.

If you can not see directly through the primer hole, then you need to open the breech face, on both sides to center the 40 case.

I have not done this yet. But pretty straight forward. Or send the slide to Rich D. at Canyon Creek Custom and he can do on a mill. With return shipping less than 70 bucks or so.

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I have a kimber 9mm also and read the same thing. But I took an empty 40 case/no primer, slid it up into the breech face, it will not pass. But if you place it inside of the breech face, it will fit.

The bottom open is about 0.15 too tight. Also remove the firing pin and look through the firing pin hole from the back of the slide, when you have the empty case in the breech face. Can you see directly through the primer hole of the case? If you can, great , you only need to widen the bottom where the extractor is.

If you can not see directly through the primer hole, then you need to open the breech face, on both sides to center the 40 case.

I have not done this yet. But pretty straight forward. Or send the slide to Rich D. at Canyon Creek Custom and he can do on a mill. With return shipping less than 70 bucks or so.

I'll be sure to check to this out when it shows up. Thanks!

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After posting this topic (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=214067) and getting some great advice to pass on the purchase, I found a Kimber Stainless Target II for what I think was a great price of $800 shipped. I plan on shooting it as a 9mm until I start getting close to a major match, then I'll switch it over to 40. I'm just hoping that the breech face actually does accept a 40 case.

I'm confused: is this a 9mm slide or .40? They are not the same and as far as I know, .40 brass will not fit the cutout on a 9mm slide. And BTW, 9mm brass won't work on a .40 slide because it would be too loose and not extract properly.

I have a Trojan 1911 that has both a 9mm slide/barrel and a .40 slide/barrel, but they are separate assemblies.

This is a Kimber 9mm. I was under the belief that Kimber cuts their breech faces to 40, even in their 9mm's. I should only need to replace the barrel, bushing, and magazines to be able to switch over to 40. At least that's what I've read on several forums. I might need to replace the ejector and extractor, but I'll have to shoot the gun to know for sure.

Interesting, I never heard that. I don't understand how that could be possible in a 1911, since the extractor does not have enough range of motion to keep tension on a 9mm case rim if the breech face is radiused out far enough to accept a 40 case. Is Kimber using a pivoting extractor?

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I have a kimber 9mm also and read the same thing. But I took an empty 40 case/no primer, slid it up into the breech face, it will not pass. But if you place it inside of the breech face, it will fit.

The bottom open is about 0.15 too tight. Also remove the firing pin and look through the firing pin hole from the back of the slide, when you have the empty case in the breech face. Can you see directly through the primer hole of the case? If you can, great , you only need to widen the bottom where the extractor is.

If you can not see directly through the primer hole, then you need to open the breech face, on both sides to center the 40 case.

I have not done this yet. But pretty straight forward. Or send the slide to Rich D. at Canyon Creek Custom and he can do on a mill. With return shipping less than 70 bucks or so.

Still not sure how the extractor could work on a 9mm case. As the case pulls out of battery, the rim will lose tension since the extractor can't pivot far enough to keep it pinned to the lip of the breech face. In effect, it would be like installing a 9mm "conversion" barrel into a 40 slide. Such conversions work on guns like Glocks, SIGs, Beretta, HI Powers and others with pivoting extractors which can rotate far enough to "follow" the case and keep tension on it. A 1911 extractor can't move far enough to do it. A springfield XD which is also a "fixed" extractor design has the same issue. I suspect this "conversion" is not going to extract 100%.

Would be interested to hear how it goes.

Edited by bountyhunter
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I have a kimber 9mm also and read the same thing. But I took an empty 40 case/no primer, slid it up into the breech face, it will not pass. But if you place it inside of the breech face, it will fit.

The bottom open is about 0.15 too tight. Also remove the firing pin and look through the firing pin hole from the back of the slide, when you have the empty case in the breech face. Can you see directly through the primer hole of the case? If you can, great , you only need to widen the bottom where the extractor is.

If you can not see directly through the primer hole, then you need to open the breech face, on both sides to center the 40 case.

I have not done this yet. But pretty straight forward. Or send the slide to Rich D. at Canyon Creek Custom and he can do on a mill. With return shipping less than 70 bucks or so.

Still not sure how the extractor could work on a 9mm case. As the case pulls out of battery, the rim will lose tension since the extractor can't pivot far enough to keep it pinned to the lip of the breech face. In effect, it would be like installing a 9mm "conversion" barrel into a 40 slide. Such conversions work on guns like Glocks, SIGs, Beretta, HI Powers and others with pivoting extractors which can rotate far enough to "follow" the case and keep tension on it. A 1911 extractor can't move far enough to do it. A springfield XD which is also a "fixed" extractor design has the same issue. I suspect this "conversion" is not going to extract 100%.

Would be interested to hear how it goes.

I think what you're missing here is that I'm starting with a 9mm, not going from 40 to 9mm. The gun is already tuned to run 9mm, I'm just hoping that with a barrel swap it will run 40. Here are the threads I read that seem to indicate this should work:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=421157

Post # 5: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123916

I won't know for sure until I get it, at this point I'm just relying on the accuracy of the internet!

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I have a kimber 9mm also and read the same thing. But I took an empty 40 case/no primer, slid it up into the breech face, it will not pass. But if you place it inside of the breech face, it will fit.

The bottom open is about 0.15 too tight. Also remove the firing pin and look through the firing pin hole from the back of the slide, when you have the empty case in the breech face. Can you see directly through the primer hole of the case? If you can, great , you only need to widen the bottom where the extractor is.

If you can not see directly through the primer hole, then you need to open the breech face, on both sides to center the 40 case.

I have not done this yet. But pretty straight forward. Or send the slide to Rich D. at Canyon Creek Custom and he can do on a mill. With return shipping less than 70 bucks or so.

Still not sure how the extractor could work on a 9mm case. As the case pulls out of battery, the rim will lose tension since the extractor can't pivot far enough to keep it pinned to the lip of the breech face. In effect, it would be like installing a 9mm "conversion" barrel into a 40 slide. Such conversions work on guns like Glocks, SIGs, Beretta, HI Powers and others with pivoting extractors which can rotate far enough to "follow" the case and keep tension on it. A 1911 extractor can't move far enough to do it. A springfield XD which is also a "fixed" extractor design has the same issue. I suspect this "conversion" is not going to extract 100%.

Would be interested to hear how it goes.

I think what you're missing here is that I'm starting with a 9mm, not going from 40 to 9mm. The gun is already tuned to run 9mm, I'm just hoping that with a barrel swap it will run 40. Here are the threads I read that seem to indicate this should work:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=421157

Post # 5: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123916

I won't know for sure until I get it, at this point I'm just relying on the accuracy of the internet!

I don't think I am missing any of the salient facts. You may be starting with a 9mm slide, but if you radius out the breech face on it enough to allow a .40 case to fit in, you will have an air gap of ballpark .020" around the 9mm case rim when it is in battery and centered on the breech face in front of the firing pin. As the slide pulls out of battery, the case will twist and lose extractor tension because a 1911 extractor does not have enough range to move far enough to keep the rim clamped against the breech face edge.

I suspect you will see what I mean if you test it.

The gun is already tuned to run 9mm, I'm just hoping that with a barrel swap it will run 40.

My point is that 1911's do not work for that and the main reason is the extractor. Other guns with pivoting extractors which are spring loaded can, I have a bunch of them which run well for 9 and 40 (Beretta, SIG, Browning, Glock). I just don't see how it is possible to have a single slide work with both 9/40 on a 1911 with the stock extractor setup. Even if you had a separate extractor for 9mm, you would need to bend the heck out of it to get tension and then when the slide went into battery (and it centered the round in the opening) it would have to deflect the extractor pretty far. 1911 extractors are hard to push, they are not spring loaded they are just a piece of steel.

Would like to know how to do it if it is possible. Let us know if it works.

Edited by bountyhunter
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I have a kimber 9mm also and read the same thing. But I took an empty 40 case/no primer, slid it up into the breech face, it will not pass. But if you place it inside of the breech face, it will fit.

The bottom open is about 0.15 too tight. Also remove the firing pin and look through the firing pin hole from the back of the slide, when you have the empty case in the breech face. Can you see directly through the primer hole of the case? If you can, great , you only need to widen the bottom where the extractor is.

If you can not see directly through the primer hole, then you need to open the breech face, on both sides to center the 40 case.

I have not done this yet. But pretty straight forward. Or send the slide to Rich D. at Canyon Creek Custom and he can do on a mill. With return shipping less than 70 bucks or so.

Still not sure how the extractor could work on a 9mm case. As the case pulls out of battery, the rim will lose tension since the extractor can't pivot far enough to keep it pinned to the lip of the breech face. In effect, it would be like installing a 9mm "conversion" barrel into a 40 slide. Such conversions work on guns like Glocks, SIGs, Beretta, HI Powers and others with pivoting extractors which can rotate far enough to "follow" the case and keep tension on it. A 1911 extractor can't move far enough to do it. A springfield XD which is also a "fixed" extractor design has the same issue. I suspect this "conversion" is not going to extract 100%.

Would be interested to hear how it goes.

I think what you're missing here is that I'm starting with a 9mm, not going from 40 to 9mm. The gun is already tuned to run 9mm, I'm just hoping that with a barrel swap it will run 40. Here are the threads I read that seem to indicate this should work:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=421157

Post # 5: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123916

I won't know for sure until I get it, at this point I'm just relying on the accuracy of the internet!

I see the confusion. The Enos thread says:

I'm thinking about starting to shoot USPSA and I currently have a 1911 in 9mm, however I want to shoot major and was thinking about buying an upper chambered in .40, can I easily interchange the two? do I have to change anything else aside from getting the new slide, barrel, bushing, magazines, firing pin, and block?

An "upper" is a complete slide and barrel assembly. You definitely can swap those on a single receiver, I have a Trojan that I have both a 9mm and 40 upper for and it works well. Just can't swap barrel only.

As for the comment about Kimber milling their 9mm slides to .40 dimensions? I never heard it and don't see how it could work (for reasons detailed earlier), but I am willing to learn if there is a way.

Edited by bountyhunter
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I don't think I am missing any of the salient facts. You may be starting with a 9mm slide, but if you radius out the breech face on it enough to allow a .40 case to fit in, you will have an air gap of ballpark .020" around the 9mm case rim when it is in battery and centered on the breech face in front of the firing pin. As the slide pulls out of battery, the case will twist and lose extractor tension because a 1911 extractor does not have enough range to move far enough to keep the rim clamped against the breech face edge.

I suspect you will see what I mean if you test it.

The gun is already tuned to run 9mm, I'm just hoping that with a barrel swap it will run 40.

My point is that 1911's do not work for that and the main reason is the extractor. Other guns with pivoting extractors which are spring loaded can, I have a bunch of them which run well for 9 and 40 (Beretta, SIG, Browning, Glock). I just don't see how it is possible to have a single slide work with both 9/40 on a 1911 with the stock extractor setup.

Would like to know how to do it if it is possible.

But I'm not doing anything to the breech face. This is how it comes from Kimber and already works. I see your point if I'm taking any other manufactures slide and machining out the breech face, but I'm not, this is just how Kimber builds them. This thread discusses the larger breech face in the Kimber's and how it's not an issue. They do say that it can contribute to wearing out extractors faster, but that the guns run fine. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=286528

As soon as I get a 40 barrel I'll be sure to post on how it works out.

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I did find a few threads where people said they heard Kimber stopped doing this but nothing to actually confirm it. It is a bit of a gamble on my side, but if the gun won't run 40 it's a good excuse to buy one that will. I thought about just buying a 40 to begin with but I already have a ton of 9mm brass and bullets. I didn't want to mess with loading 40 minor and major when I can stick with my 9mm load and just load 40 major too.

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I don't think I am missing any of the salient facts. You may be starting with a 9mm slide, but if you radius out the breech face on it enough to allow a .40 case to fit in, you will have an air gap of ballpark .020" around the 9mm case rim when it is in battery and centered on the breech face in front of the firing pin. As the slide pulls out of battery, the case will twist and lose extractor tension because a 1911 extractor does not have enough range to move far enough to keep the rim clamped against the breech face edge.

I suspect you will see what I mean if you test it.

The gun is already tuned to run 9mm, I'm just hoping that with a barrel swap it will run 40.

My point is that 1911's do not work for that and the main reason is the extractor. Other guns with pivoting extractors which are spring loaded can, I have a bunch of them which run well for 9 and 40 (Beretta, SIG, Browning, Glock). I just don't see how it is possible to have a single slide work with both 9/40 on a 1911 with the stock extractor setup.

Would like to know how to do it if it is possible.

But I'm not doing anything to the breech face. This is how it comes from Kimber and already works. I see your point if I'm taking any other manufactures slide and machining out the breech face, but I'm not, this is just how Kimber builds them. This thread discusses the larger breech face in the Kimber's and how it's not an issue. They do say that it can contribute to wearing out extractors faster, but that the guns run fine. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=286528

As soon as I get a 40 barrel I'll be sure to post on how it works out.

I had not read that thread, but the poster in that thread said exactly what I did:

Secondly, from a reliability perspective, the round upon feeding slides under the extractor claw, with a larger breach face there is a higher chance that the cartridge may move sideways, and hence not feed correctly.

Thirdly, from a reliability perspective, the round upon extraction, may also slip sideways due to not being held firm on the breach face, and hence a higher chance of extraction/ejection malfunction.

I have fitted a few extractors in my time, and I really don't think a .40 dimension slide can have the extractor set up properly for 9mm. It may "work" but I doubt it will have proper tension and I doubt it will extract 100%. I still don't know why Kimber would mill their slides off dimension.

FYI, that thread is 5 years old so the info on what Kimber is making may not be current?

Edited by bountyhunter
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People in the thread said their guns run fine. Again, I could see this being a problem if I was taking a 40 slide and trying to run 9 in it, or taking a 9 slide and opening up the breech face to run 40. But I'm not. I'm taking a 9mm slide that just happens to have a larger breech face and hoping to be able to run 40 in it. If anything I should have to worry about there being too much tension on the extractor when I run 40. Out of the box it should run 9mm fine, if it didn't I don't think Kimber would sell as many 9mm 1911's as they do. I could be wrong, maybe this will be the worst running 9mm I've ever owned. But through my research it seems that a lot of people are really happy with their Kimber 9mm.

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People in the thread said their guns run fine. Again, I could see this being a problem if I was taking a 40 slide and trying to run 9 in it, or taking a 9 slide and opening up the breech face to run 40. But I'm not. I'm taking a 9mm slide that just happens to have a larger breech face and hoping to be able to run 40 in it.

I paid very careful attention to the info in the thread. Read this from Kimberacp:

I have a kimber 9mm also and read the same thing. But I took an empty 40 case/no primer, slid it up into the breech face, it will not pass. But if you place it inside of the breech face, it will fit.

The bottom open is about 0.15 too tight. Also remove the firing pin and look through the firing pin hole from the back of the slide, when you have the empty case in the breech face. Can you see directly through the primer hole of the case? If you can, great , you only need to widen the bottom where the extractor is.

If you can not see directly through the primer hole, then you need to open the breech face, on both sides to center the 40 case.

I have not done this yet.

So, you won't be taking a 9mm slide and running 40 because it won't fit. You will need to radius out the breech face so it can accept the larger case. And for the reasons I said, once that is done the 9mm case will be free to move significantly and the extractor will lose tension.

The design of the 1911 is that extractor tension is tested by sliding a case up into the hook and measuring how much force it takes to pull it out. The case is held by the extractor claw on one side and the breech face lip on the other. IMHO, if the face is cut large enough to accept a 40 case, I don't see how this type of extractor can possibly hold proper tension and function correctly for 9mm and work 100% working with the larger cut out. It may extract some, I just don't think it will be reliable.

The first thing I would do when you get your 9mm is check the fit of a 40 case. If, as said above, it does not fit, I would not screw with it. If you size it out to work with 40, I suspect you may end up with a gun that shoots 40 but is not reliable cycling 9mm, and the change will be permanent. I would consult a gunsmith before cutting on the slide.

Just my opinion.

Edited by bountyhunter
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I'm just going off of my research online that indicates this is how Kimber builds their guns. I can't say for sure that they stopped doing it this way as I couldn't find anything that confirmed 100% that they did. KimberACP is the first person to say that his wouldn't work. I didn't find anyone else saying this. So it is very possible that I will be receiving a 9mm slide and running 40 in it without doing anything to the breech face. Also, KimberACP didn't say the breech face wouldn't accept the case, he said it wouldn't slide up in to it due to the bottom opening being too tight, but that we was able to place a 40 case inside of the breech. That to me sounds like the breech face itself would still be the same size as a 40 case. If this is true his gun would have the same issues with extraction that you're explaining, along with everyone else who owns a Kimber 1911 9mm.

The point is that Kimber built the guns this way and they run fine. Maybe they don't build them this way anymore, but I couldn't find anything confirming it. I'll be picking the gun up on Friday and the first thing I will do (after inspecting it) is see if a 40 case will fit in the breech face. If a 40 case fits and it won't run 9mm reliably I will be in contact with Kimber for repairs. If a 40 case will not fit then I won't do anything to change that. I'll just shoot it until I can afford a 40 1911 also.

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Took a couple of days to get the pictures to explain what I was talking about. I will freely admit I have no idea what Kimber does or why. If it's possible to get a 40 slide to run 9mm? Who knows, there are some REALLY good reasons why it's a VERY bad idea. The pictures attached illustrate.

I have both .40 and 9mm Trojan slides. I took the picture with the Weigand head gauges which are the size of the case heads and also show firing pin alignment.

First off, measured 9mm and .40 cases at the rim and the latter is ballpark .030" larger. What that means is clear from the images.

1) The first pic shows a 9mm gauge inserted in a 9mm slide, showing proper alignment.

post-271-0-91659300-1431646211_thumb.jpg

2) The second pic shows what happens when you put a 9mm gauge into a 40 slide, or any slide with a standard .40SW breech face cut. There is no extractor tension so I had to use a toothpick tip to shim it so i would stay in place for a photo. Note how far the gauge is misaligned from the firing pin opening. The size difference between 9mm and 40 cases is .030", so one would need to bend the extractor over .030" to get some tension on the rim here.

post-271-0-95488800-1431646238_thumb.jpg

3) The third pic shows a 40 slide and 40 gauge with extractor correctly adjusted shows proper alignment..

post-271-0-46685500-1431646225_thumb.jpg

4) The fourth pic shows the 9mm shimmed round going toward the .40 barrel showing how the round is misaligned. This shows the problem: if it was a 9mm barrel, the barrel would have to "force align" the round as the slide pulled into battery. To do that it would have to force it sideways against the extractor to center up on the breech face. That would take some serious force and cause potential cycle problems. It would also rapidly bend the extractor and lose tension.

post-271-0-24880500-1431651334_thumb.jpg

Edited by bountyhunter
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I have a kimber 9mm, and what you want will absolutely not work at all.

Nobody has mentioned it so far, but kimber uses a majorly extended ejector for 9mm. There is no way in hell a 40 case is going to clear the ejector they use for 9mm. You're going to have to do work on the frame to change to any other caliber.

Not to mention the extractor issues already mentioned so far... Just for shits and giggle I took my Kimber Team Match apart to test the slide fit. My gun was made in 2008 or 2009. The 40 case fits no possible way over the breech face. Not only is the bottom too narrow, but the largest width isn't anywhere near large enough, either.

Other issues you would have are:

1. Mainspring will be wrong, or at the very least very poorly tuned to your caliber

2. No extractor would ever work reliably, and kimber extractors are terrible to begin with.

3. Good luck getting a good bushing fit. You'd have to turn the barrel on a lathe and hope it's big enough to begin with. Normally you would change the bushing, but it's going to already be tuned for your 9mm barrel.

4. Your sights would need adjustment between calibers

5. Super long 9mm ejector pinned into the frame

6. Recoil spring would be way off.

If you want a 9mm, then get the gun. If you want a 40, get a different gun. It's that simple.

The general rule of thumb is that you can swap calibers with an entire new top end (slide, barrel, sights, etc), but that rule has an exception for 9mm because of the ejector. You can't convert a 9mm 1911 into anything easily. Heck, you can't even put kimber's 22LR top end on it...

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What they do is cut the breech face to use the same width ejector for 9mm, 38 super and 40 s&w. They all use the same Ejector. But the breech face cut out for the rim to fit in and maybe the placement of the extractor bore are set for the specific round.

Edited by pskys2
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The general rule of thumb is that you can swap calibers with an entire new top end (slide, barrel, sights, etc), but that rule has an exception for 9mm because of the ejector. You can't convert a 9mm 1911 into anything easily.

I don't know how easy it was, but a gunsmith built a 6" longslide in .40 that dropped onto the receiver of my 9mm Trojan and works very well using the same (original 9mm) ejector and slide stop. I routinely swap them back and forth. So it is possible. The two slides shown in the pictures above in 40 and 9 go onto the same 9mm receiver.

Edited by bountyhunter
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