45ACP shaving coating when seating

[rev1911]

Hello all, relatively new here and to reloading. After much lurking and learning, I picked up a 550b a while ago, and have successfully worked up a 9mm load that I am very happy with. So I decided to work on a 45ACP load...

I picked up sampler packs of 230gr RN NLG from Acme bullets and Black and Blue bullets, to try a couple different brands. Both sized to .452. I'm using range brass, tumbled and clean.

Last night I got the dies all set up. Made a couple dummy rounds at 1.260 OAL, which chamber and feed fine in my guns. Minimal bell, just enough to let the bullet sit stable, and no crimp, just removing the bell (about .472). Everything looked great, so I pulled the bullets to reuse them and start loading powder. After pulling them I noticed very slight shiny bits of metal coming through at the base of the bullet.

So I assumed my bell wasn't big enough, and made a few more rounds (using a new piece of brass each time), increasing the bell with each round but still finding the same shave marks at the base of the bullet after pulling it. I was originally using the Black and Blue bullets, then tried Acme, and had the same issue though not quite as bad. Now the bell is to the point where the base of the bullet sits well below the edge of the case mouth, so it is obvious the shaving is not occurring at the edge of the case mouth, it is happening deeper in the case. I can't remember the measurement now, but I think the bell was about .482, or more.

I have attached a pic. You can just barely see the marks at the base of the bullets, they sort of look like reflections, but that is shiny lead. The red one is Acme, the yellow ones are Black and Blue.

Any thoughts? I assume that is not acceptable? Thanks in advance for your advice. This forum has been an incredible resource, so I came here first.

edit: I'm using Dillon dies.

edit 2: I find the same shaving when pulling the bullet immediately after the seating die (no crimp at all), so the crimp die is not causing any shaving, it is happening at the seating stage.

Edited May 11, 2015 by rev1911

[usmc90]

I may be wrong , but judging by the looks of the coating on the base of the yellow bullets I'd say they might have an coating adhesion issues.

[zzt]

You can solve this problem by ordering a Mr. Bulletfeeder powder funnel and replacing the one that came with your 550. They are $32 each. You will have to readjust your powder station height to suit- easily done. This funnel expands the case mouth to two diameters so the bullet actually sits down inside the case when you place it. Adjust the die so that you get only the very slightest bell, just enough that you can barely feel or measure it. That will cure all your shaving problems.

[glynnm45]

You can achieve the same results with a $10 Lyman M die.

[rev1911]

You can solve this problem by ordering a Mr. Bulletfeeder powder funnel and replacing the one that came with your 550. They are $32 each. You will have to readjust your powder station height to suit- easily done. This funnel expands the case mouth to two diameters so the bullet actually sits down inside the case when you place it. Adjust the die so that you get only the very slightest bell, just enough that you can barely feel or measure it. That will cure all your shaving problems.

You can achieve the same results with a $10 Lyman M die.

Yes it does seem as if the case is just .001 too small below the bell, and it is rubbing the coating off the base of the bullet. I'm surprised that nobody else has had this problem with the standard Dillon powder die? Or perhaps my die is just slightly out of spec?

The Lyman M die, if I'm looking at it correctly, won't work with my Dillon powder drop, will it?

Does anyone else have experience with the Mr. Bulletfeeder funnel?

Edited May 11, 2015 by rev1911

[KevinB]

I was having shaving issues as well on my 650, and we are not the first.

I just got a Mr Bulletfeeder funnel about 300 rounds ago. It starts the bullets straight in the case, so I don't have any shaving issues, but I find the case sticks to it pretty badly and I really have to muscle the case mouth off the funnel. I might have it adjusted too far down, so once I get back on a stretch of days off I'll raise it and test again. If someone has walked that path before, I'd love to hear about it.

My shaving was so bad I couldn't even use plated bullets, but the Mr Bulletfeeder funnel seems to have solved the problems. Rainiers are now my most accurate bullet, so instead of 10K of Rainier .40's holding the floor down in the garage I can use them!

[HOGRIDER]

You can solve this problem by ordering a Mr. Bulletfeeder powder funnel and replacing the one that came with your 550. They are $32 each. You will have to readjust your powder station height to suit- easily done. This funnel expands the case mouth to two diameters so the bullet actually sits down inside the case when you place it. Adjust the die so that you get only the very slightest bell, just enough that you can barely feel or measure it. That will cure all your shaving problems.

You can achieve the same results with a $10 Lyman M die.

Yes it does seem as if the case is just .001 too small below the bell, and it is rubbing the coating off the base of the bullet. I'm surprised that nobody else has had this problem with the standard Dillon powder die? Or perhaps my die is just slightly out of spec?

The Lyman M die, if I'm looking at it correctly, won't work with my Dillon powder drop, will it?

Does anyone else have experience with the Mr. Bulletfeeder funnel?

The MBF .45acp powder funnel works equally as well as the 9mm funnel does for me.......

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=205711

[dsa]

You can solve this problem by ordering a Mr. Bulletfeeder powder funnel and replacing the one that came with your 550. They are $32 each. You will have to readjust your powder station height to suit- easily done. This funnel expands the case mouth to two diameters so the bullet actually sits down inside the case when you place it. Adjust the die so that you get only the very slightest bell, just enough that you can barely feel or measure it. That will cure all your shaving problems.

^, this.

[rev1911]

Thank you guys for all the quick advice. I went ahead and ordered the MBF funnel. Hopefully it gets here by the end of the week.

The MBF .45acp powder funnel works equally as well as the 9mm funnel does for me.......

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=205711

That is a great thread, I wish I had found that earlier. Thanks.

On a related note, what would happen if I shot these bullets as-is? How big of an effect would that little amout of shaving have on accuracy, leading, smoke, etc?

[KevinB]

I'd shoot them as is and see what happened.

Edited May 12, 2015 by KevinB

[oteroman]

Great info thanks

[rev1911]

I loaded a small batch and shot them yesterday just to see what would happen. They were definitely smoky, and smelled awful. I loaded Win231, and it was my first time using that powder, but I don't recall people saying it is a particularly smoky or smelly powder. So I assume it was the exposed lead and/or shave coating causing the smoke/smell. Other than that they seemed to perform well. Cleaned the guns and the barrels didn't seem overly dirty, but only ran about 50 rounds between two guns.

The MBF funnel is supposed to be delivered Friday (quick shipping from Competitive Edge), so I'll report back if it gives the fix I'm looking for.

Edited May 13, 2015 by rev1911

[zzt]

It isn't the shaved coating that causes the smell, it's the HiTek coating itself. The smell when fired is nauseating. Unfortunately, the majority of coated bullets use this brand of coating. Since you are sensitive to the smell, I'll suggest you try Falcon coated bullets. They use a proprietary coating that is slicker than lubed lead and has absolutely no smell when fired, at least none that I can detect.

My experience with 231 in 45 loaded to Major is it is dirty, smokey and hard on the hand.

[bowenbuilt]

The ACME's don't smell like the typical Hy-Tech coating. Don't know what they are doing different but I have fired thousands of them in pretty much all calibers and have not got a whiff of burning wires yet.

[techj]

Regarding the shaved coating, what I find is that if the bullet isn't perfectly straight going into the seating die that you can get this minor shaving. For me, it rarely happens when I use a bullet feeder die vs. manually placing the bullet. In my personal experience I haven't seen any leading (glock oem barrel for 9's and 1911 45's).

If odor is a problem you can also try the blue bullets. They use what appears to be a powder coating and while there is some smell it doesn't bother me and doesn't smell like burning plastic. Of course I only shoot outdoors so don't know how bad it would be at an indoor range.

[rev1911]

I received the MBF funnel, and it is definitely is big improvement. I pulled a few bullets, and one of them did have the tiniest shaving, but as others have stated above, I think it is just the nature of these coated bullets. They are not a perfectly even surface, so they occasionally will sit a little crooked, and then when they are forced down, a little of the coating gets rubbed off due to uneven pressure.

I shot some of the new loads (using Titegroup instead of W231) and they were very good, much less smoke, and the smell wasn't as bad. I shoot mostly indoors, so I think I probably will try some plated bullets to see how much difference there is.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I highly recommend the MBF funnel, and the fast shipping from Competitive Edge was great. I will probably get one for 9mm as well.

Edited May 17, 2015 by rev1911

[vixty]

I just ended up raising the Dillon funnel die up so it doesn't flare and put my lee powder die in station 3 to flare my cases. Ever since then I haven't had an issue with flares. I would think Dillon would realize their expander has issues and would modify it to be more usable.

[njl]

I can't really tell from the pictures, but if you're using an impact bullet puller, the bullet often flies out, bounces off the the inside end of the hammer, then flies back into the case mouth where it will get scraped or gouged. It may be that's whats happening, and your bullets aren't damaged until you pull them.

I haven't noticed a smell issue with Hi-Tek coated bullets, but I suspect it depends on the powder being used and the procedures used to apply the coating.

I've used Universal Clays, WST, and Promo in 9mm, and have used WST, regular Clays, and Promo in .45. For Hi-Tek coated bullets, I've used Bayou, Black and Blue, and Missouri Bullet.

Also, for .45acp, I've found Black and Blue to run a "little wide" and order them sized to .451.

[rev1911]

I can't really tell from the pictures, but if you're using an impact bullet puller, the bullet often flies out, bounces off the the inside end of the hammer, then flies back into the case mouth where it will get scraped or gouged. It may be that's whats happening, and your bullets aren't damaged until you pull them.

I haven't noticed a smell issue with Hi-Tek coated bullets, but I suspect it depends on the powder being used and the procedures used to apply the coating.

I've used Universal Clays, WST, and Promo in 9mm, and have used WST, regular Clays, and Promo in .45. For Hi-Tek coated bullets, I've used Bayou, Black and Blue, and Missouri Bullet.

Also, for .45acp, I've found Black and Blue to run a "little wide" and order them sized to .451.

I think you're right about using the kinetic puller. On a couple bullets there was a sort of scallop shaped scrape, and I was baffled at how it happened while seating, but now that makes sense, it probably happened when the bullet bounced back into the edge of the case.

So far I've run through a couple batches now, and I'm confident that there is no, or very very little, shaving occuring. My most recent batch had some very good accuracy.

These are the first coated bullets I've loaded (or fired), and at first I thought the smell was really bad, but now after a few range trips, I don't really notice it anymore. I think the first batch, using W231, was definitely smokier than the Titegroup I'm using now, which added to the "aroma"

[texasref]

I have mine sized to 0.451 also. That alone stopped the problem.

The coating is as uniform as the mfg. can make it, however is not perfect. Expect some little scrapes on the sides when taken apart. No big deal.

HP38 and W231 are tough powders to work max. loads with. (Dirty sometimes beyond dirty). Tightgroup will be better or a similar powder.

[bigdawgbeav]

It isn't the shaved coating that causes the smell, it's the HiTek coating itself. The smell when fired is nauseating. Unfortunately, the majority of coated bullets use this brand of coating. Since you are sensitive to the smell, I'll suggest you try Falcon coated bullets. They use a proprietary coating that is slicker than lubed lead and has absolutely no smell when fired, at least none that I can detect.

My experience with 231 in 45 loaded to Major is it is dirty, smokey and hard on the hand.

The new PC bullets from Roger's Better Bullets don't have that stench from the Hi-Tek as it uses another type coating. And I'm pretty sure less smoke than other coated...

[choppe]

Has anyone had good luck with the standard Dillon powder/flairing die when using these new-fangled coated bullets? From the sounds of it, its not worth trying with the Dillon die. I've been looking to switch to these lower cost bullets in 45. I guess another die isn't the end of the world.

[Absocold]

WST will smoke less than W231, E3 even less.

[TDA]

Has anyone had good luck with the standard Dillon powder/flairing die when using these new-fangled coated bullets? From the sounds of it, its not worth trying with the Dillon die. I've been looking to switch to these lower cost bullets in 45. I guess another die isn't the end of the world.

I've loaded thousands with Dillon dies with no shaving issues.

[RGinIdaho]

Has anyone had good luck with the standard Dillon powder/flairing die when using these new-fangled coated bullets? From the sounds of it, its not worth trying with the Dillon die. I've been looking to switch to these lower cost bullets in 45. I guess another die isn't the end of the world.

I've loaded thousands with Dillon dies with no shaving issues.

no shaving or other issues with dillon dies over here