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I think we need to clarify what a 180 "Trap" is. 180 Trap is the placement of a target so that it can ONLY be engaged beyond the 180...

So I'm still a little confused...so is this your definition of a "180 trap"? It doesn't sound like it when I read the rest of the post but wanting to know since this goes against plain logic and really, really bad stage design and setup.

You are correct in my definition of a 180 Trap.

Beyond that there can be targets placed close to the 180 and the shooter CHOOSES to engage them beyond the 180. That is not a "Trap". That is a bad decision made by the shooter.

So you have seen a COF with targets that can only be engaged beyond the 180 and you still shot it? or even stayed on the premises?

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There was a stage at the USPSA nationals that had a target setup that way. The stage was thrown out if I remember correctly.

There have been a few instances at club matches that presented this issue. In every instance I found this while walking the stages before the start of the match. I would fix the target placement myself to make it legal then tell the MD or if the MD was on a power trip I would tell him to fix it before the start of the match.

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The DQ "traps" I don't like but see regularly are side ports in hallway type stages where there are target facing the port that are somewhat equally spaced down range to up range but the up range target or targets are beyond the 180 so if the shooter doesn't program in their walk through that I can only shoot the other end or two targets on the down range end of what appears to be a slightly spread out array and just shoot them as they see them they get sent home.

While I'm not big on the whole nany state thing I do see it as my job to build stages that are fun and chalanging and I found I can do that and make it so the shooter can't shoot the face of a target beyond the 180 so that's what I do, so far the only thing it has cost me is extra time and props,

Edited by bikerburgess
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There was a stage at the USPSA nationals that had a target setup that way. The stage was thrown out if I remember correctly.

There have been a few instances at club matches that presented this issue. In every instance I found this while walking the stages before the start of the match. I would fix the target placement myself to make it legal then tell the MD or if the MD was on a power trip I would tell him to fix it before the start of the match.

Ok, I expected as much from you. I feel a little better, I was really getting worried with the way this thread was going but confidence has been restored.

There is no standardization on the official definition on a 180 trap and about everyone I talk to sees it a little differently. I see a 180 trap where a target can be clearly engaged past the 180 but also had a legal presentation at some point in the COF. If it never has a legal presentation (safe angle to engage it), it's just a bad design and should be fixed immediately before first shots. What comes to mind was a stage at a Major match five years ago where there were ports and as you passed the ports, the previous targets could still be clearly seen/engaged but was past the 180. The front most targets could be legally engaged from the first port but could also be engaged from the third port (just going off of memory, I think it was third) but it was passed the 180. It was a full target presentation clearly seen beyond the 180 but my point here is that it was legal at one point and then was not from another. From the presentation, it looked almost legal and when you go by "as and when visible", it would trip up some. I think it was tossed.

Just for the record, I really hate the wording in 2.1.4 about "being forced to act"...the COF doesn't force you to do anything, the shooter makes their own decisions about what they do and they are responsible for it. I do believe in "dummy proofing" a stage but you can only go so far sometimes.

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The DQ "traps" I don't like but see regularly are side ports in hallway type stages where there are target facing the port that are somewhat equally spaced down range to up range but the up range target or targets are beyond the 180 so if the shooter doesn't program in their walk through that I can only shoot the other end or two targets on the down range end of what appears to be a slightly spread out array and just shoot them as they see them they get sent home.

While I'm not big on the whole nany state thing I do see it as my job to build stages that are fun and chalanging and I found I can do that and make it so the shooter can't shoot the face of a target beyond the 180 so that's what I do, so far the only thing it has cost me is extra time and props,

And we thank you for that extra care, Mike. Good job!

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It is one thing to design a stage that allows targets to be engaged past the 180, it is another to design a stage that encourages the shooter to break the 180 by making the targets available starting at about 170 degrees. When possible I will modify the stage to allow the target to become available earlier so that the shooter is not forced to stop and stand the instant they clear the wall because going one step past the wall will break the 180.

Some of the most difficult stages I have seen involved targets set in the 150 to 180 range only. Take the one or two targets on that side and then transition to the other side for the one or two targets on that side. Move a couple of feet down range and repeat on the next set. You could break the 180 but you had to work at it.

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The fact is that USPSA stages can and will have target presentations which force you to engage targets close to the 180. Shooters need to hone their "180 Awareness" skills to assist them in assessing when and where to engage these targets without breaking the 180. If we shield shooters from testing these skills then its really nothing more than an injustice to them. As I said before, the training wheels need to come off at some point and the shooters need to test their skills of keeping their gun pointed down range at all times. Testing and learning these skills is a lot more cost effective at local club matches.

If you don't like having to stop forward advancement in a stage to engage a target that only presents its self close to the 180, then you are participating in the wrong shooting game. Hone your 180 awareness skills so you can tackle the shooting challenge in a safe manner. Or only shoot matches that spoon feed you safe angles of fire then don't be "surprised" when you get DQed at a major match because you haven't honed your 180 awareness skills.

Some decisions are more expensive than others. Decide wisely.

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We take great care to minimize the availability of targets beyond the 180 through the use of barrels, walls, turning the targets, etc. Still, you will often find situations where you must go in to a port to engage an array, and then back out around a divider wall to get to the next area and engage another array. Coming around the divider wall and trying to engage too soon, similar to what someone else mentioned about engaging around an end wall, can catch people who are too focused on the targets and not on their muzzle. They try to drive the muzzle around the wall and get DQ'd.

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The fact is that USPSA stages can and will have target presentations which force you to engage targets close to the 180. Shooters need to hone their "180 Awareness" skills to assist them in assessing when and where to engage these targets without breaking the 180. If we shield shooters from testing these skills then its really nothing more than an injustice to them. As I said before, the training wheels need to come off at some point and the shooters need to test their skills of keeping their gun pointed down range at all times. Testing and learning these skills is a lot more cost effective at local club matches.

If you don't like having to stop forward advancement in a stage to engage a target that only presents its self close to the 180, then you are participating in the wrong shooting game. Hone your 180 awareness skills so you can tackle the shooting challenge in a safe manner. Or only shoot matches that spoon feed you safe angles of fire then don't be "surprised" when you get DQed at a major match because you haven't honed your 180 awareness skills.

Some decisions are more expensive than others. Decide wisely.

Placing a target so that you HAVE to stop once you clear the wall is not a challenge. Placing it so that you can take it at a slow walk/crawl as you clear the wall because you have the abilities to engage it without breaking the 180 while a B,C or D shooter might have to stop to engage it because they cannot transition and call their shot that quickly makes for a challenge.

I do not have a problem with putting targets in the 160+ area. I have a problem with forcing ALL shooters to engage them at a stand still because that is the only way to avoid breaking the 180. Granted it tests your ability to come to a sudden stop, engage the target and then break into full speed mode again when it is at 179 degrees once you clear the wall/port, but that is not the way I like to see stages set up. It is too easy for a shooter to be half a step past the wall/port and be at 181 degrees.

Our last match I looked at all the stages and let the RO's know which targets would be considered 180 DQ's if they were engaged from certain positions. Most RO's I know look at their stages and make those decisions prior to the first shot being fired. IF I see a target engaged from a one of those positions I will call STOP and DQ the shooter. No one was DQ'ed because they all knew they needed to either stop and engage the target prior to that position or they needed to take it while moving prior to entering that position. So the situational awareness was there without forcing the shooter to test the RO's interpretation of the 180 line by waiting until the last second to engage that target.

I like stages that are set up so that I do not need to interpret if the shooter broke the 180. I like stages where they need to break 190+ because they over ran the target.

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  • 5 months later...

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