racnsoonr Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I appreciate any help or advise that can be provided... I have been running 4.7grn TG 180gn in my 5" sti and achieving 169pf at 1.175oal I am trying to work up a load with the same oal and major pf using 200gn X-tremes and TG... I have heard to back off .5 gn and go from there, but data is a little hard to find with the long oal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapple Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 If you back off .5 grains and work up you should be fine. I think I ended up at 4.3 grains with a 200 xtreme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankYa Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I shoot 200gr Xtreme bullets over 4.2gr of Titegroup. WIth an OAL of 1.180 and an STI 5", it shoots 172PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksamwell Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Very interested to see where this discusson goes. I'm also attempting to develop a Titegroup/200gr Xtreme major load. My initial attempts over the chrono were a miserable failure. I'm shooting a CZ Tactical Sport and the loads I tested with 10 shots each provided the following data (The Ave-2(SD) powe factor figure ensures that 99% of my loads should pass chrono testing): 3.4gr @ 1.160", 694 Ave, 28 ES, 9 SD, Ave-2(SD) Power Factor = 135.2 3.4gr @ 1.130", 724 Ave, 34 ES, 10 SD, Ave-2(SD) Power Factor = 140.8 3.6gr @ 1.160", 744 Ave, 54 ES, 15 SD, Ave-2(SD) Power Factor = 142.8 3.6gr @ 1.130", 757 Ave, 42 ES, 16 SD, Ave-2(SD) Power Factor = 145.0 3.8gr @ 1.160", 784 Ave, 33 ES, 9 SD, Ave-2(SD) Power Factor = 153.2 3.8gr @ 1.130", 790 Ave, 33 ES, 11 SD, Ave-2(SD) Power Factor = 153.6 3.9gr @ 1.160", 789 Ave, 32 ES, 10 SD, Ave-2(SD) Power Factor = 153.8 The first load at 3.4gr/1.160" showed a decent group on the paper but was too slow. At that point things looked promising. The next load with the same charge at the shorter 1.130" length had the group opening up. Things just went downhill from there and by the time I I'd shot the 3.9gr load I couldn't keep 10 shots on an 8.5" by 11" piece of typing paper from a rest at 25 yards. And I still wasn't making major. The 3.9gr charge was just barely starting to flatten the primer. I could probably push it another 10th, but if the groups suck why bother? I'll have to go back and check my crimp. The bullets measure at 0.400", the case walls at 0.010", and the crimped case at 0.422" so I shouldn't be causing any issues there, but I could probably back it off a little. I'll pull a bullet just to check and make certain. Edited July 14, 2015 by Blacksamwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1soldier Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 If you didn't make major at 4.9 and 1.13 length, I would quit while ahead. Titegroup tends to give less and less velocity as you add powder in my experience. I'm not sure why, but if the accuracy isn't there, and you didn't make major, I would try a different bullet or powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksamwell Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 If you didn't make major at 4.9 and 1.13 length, I would quit while ahead. Titegroup tends to give less and less velocity as you add powder in my experience. I'm not sure why, but if the accuracy isn't there, and you didn't make major, I would try a different bullet or powder. Since 4.9 was already above the published data I only tried the longer 1.160" length and I shot those only after shooting the lower charges and checking for pressure signs. I agree. Unless someone steps forward and points out some detail I've overlooked that would explain my issues I'm done chasing a major load with Titegroup and these bullets. My plan is to find a good minor load for this bullet/powder combination that I'll use in IDPA in my M&P and move on to trying the other powders I have on hand in a search for a good major load. However, I am very curious how others are obtaining major pf with this combo of powder/bullet in their guns. All other things being equal, the differences are likely traced to the barrel and chamber differences between guns? In my limited experience developing loads for an M&P Pro and a CZ Tactical Sport I don't notice much in the way of velocity or accuracy differences between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1soldier Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Chamber or barrel length could play a role but since most of us are at 4.2 to 4.3 grains at major (loaded long), I don't have an explanation for that drastic a difference. How close were you to making major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racnsoonr Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 For reference, I've ended up at 4.0gn TG at 1.175oal for 169pf in a 5"STI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksamwell Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 How close were you to making major? Not close enough to keep chasing it. I typically like to have my average velocity at least two standard deviations above the velocity I need to make power factor. The standard deviation was getting worse and worse as I pushed the loads up the scale to the point that the small gains in velocity I was seeing were being wiped out by increased variability for any load I wanted to be certain would pass chrono testing at a match. I take that as an indication that I'm already past the point of a useful and safe load with this bullet/powder combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksamwell Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) Okay, I must eat crow and aknowledge my mistake. I have updated my original post above with the correct load and chrono data. Away from my data I had mistakenly thought my test loads were in the 4.3 through 4.9 grain range. They were not, instead they were instead 3.4 through 3.9. Winchester's published data shows 3.8 as a max load for a Hornady XTP jacketed bullet at 1.125" and I had hoped to make major at or just over those max charges. After reviewing my data I suppose that I could venture a few 10ths higher, but I still have a major accuracy issue with the higher charges. Those who are making major, how is the accuracy? I like to see 4" groups or less at 25 yards from a rest and I often get 2" or better with cast lead. I apologize for my mistake and appreciate everyone's input. Edited July 14, 2015 by Blacksamwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankYa Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Very accurate through a 5" STI barrel. I suspect you're not getting enough velocity to stabilize. Are the bullets tumbling at all? Keyholing in the paper? Lester Okay, I must eat crow and aknowledge my mistake. I have updated my original post above with the correct load and chrono data. Away from my data I had mistakenly thought my test loads were in the 4.3 through 4.9 grain range. They were not, instead they were instead 3.4 through 3.9. Winchester's published data shows 3.8 as a max load for a Hornady XTP jacketed bullet at 1.125" and I had hoped to make major at or just over those max charges. After reviewing my data I suppose that I could venture a few 10ths higher, but I still have a major accuracy issue with the higher charges. Those who are making major, how is the accuracy? I like to see 4" groups or less at 25 yards from a rest and I often get 2" or better with cast lead. I apologize for my mistake and appreciate everyone's input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksamwell Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Very accurate through a 5" STI barrel. I suspect you're not getting enough velocity to stabilize. Are the bullets tumbling at all? Keyholing in the paper? Lester No, no obvious keyholing. But looking over my targets I do see one hole on the last and worst target where the grease ring is lopsided. Clean circle where the flat point sailed through the paper but a wierd oblong grease ring only on one side. A couple others with grease rings that are just slightly less than concentric. But if stabilization is my issue, things are getting worse the faster I push them. The starting load was pretty decent. 2.5" wide and 4" tall all with perfectly circular holes and concentric grease rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankYa Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Hmm... I don't know what to make of it other than to say try the 4.2gr and see if it improves. I have a 9mm Springfield that will NOT shoot Xtreme. It's great with jacketed, but will not group with Xtreme or other plated bullets... Very accurate through a 5" STI barrel. I suspect you're not getting enough velocity to stabilize. Are the bullets tumbling at all? Keyholing in the paper? Lester No, no obvious keyholing. But looking over my targets I do see one hole on the last and worst target where the grease ring is lopsided. Clean circle where the flat point sailed through the paper but a wierd oblong grease ring only on one side. A couple others with grease rings that are just slightly less than concentric. But if stabilization is my issue, things are getting worse the faster I push them. The starting load was pretty decent. 2.5" wide and 4" tall all with perfectly circular holes and concentric grease rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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