rprecision Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 This is my first post here and I hope I found the right place to work out a truly frustrating problem. Background: I have been shooting Glock's for 15 years off and on and carrying one for better then 6 years. CCW, practical pistol, IDPA, etc. I currently shoot Glock models 22gen1, 23 gen4, 19gen4, 34gen4, 35gen3. I am right handed, right eye dominant and use a thumbs forward grip. I keep both eyes open using a isosceles stance. Problem: Every Glock I own shoots left of point of aim. The amount varies by model and range but it's safe to say 4-6" @ 15 yards or so. For years I ha e drifted the rear sight to the right to correct for this. For years I thought this was mostly normal. Some recent drills I started doing really questioned that logic. Particularly shooting on handed strong side only, weak side only shooting. I found my point of impact was right in both instances. This got the gears turning, shooting two handed from some form of rest also brought things back towards normal. What I have tried: When you drop "glock shoots left" into the Internet the results make your head hurt. I have tried several things trying to work out some improvements. I have tried changing the location of my finger on the trigger, exaggerating grip changes, dry firing, dry firing and dry firing. I have been unable to diagnose what in particular is causing the problem. Worse yet I am consistently screwed up across all the guns. This leads me to believe the problem is absolutely me. A couple of things I have observed in trying to diagnose this problem. 1. Strong hand only shoots mostly POA / POI. 2. Shooting from a rested position two handed shoots POA/POI. Such as resting on a fence post, hood, etc. 3. Slow fire vs. Rapid fire doesn't seem to change thing's. Perhaps slow is actually slightly worse. 4. The weakest portion of my grip is my week / support hand. I feel like recoil breaks my grip and I find myself readjusting throughout shooting. I know this isn't something that is going to change overnight. I desperately need some direction on how to get out of this hole. I am willing to put in the work, time, ammo, training and money I just don't know where to start. I have some links to photos of targets but need some more posts before I can add them Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 You could try moving the rear sight to the right until the group centers. If, as the years pass, the group starts moving to the right you can then slowly move it to the left to keep the group centered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Are you hooking your left index finger on the front of the trigger guard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 If you are, stop. LOL. If not, let's try wrapping your left hand a little further around the right hand in the grip. If this exacerbates the problem making it worse, move your grip back the other way. It's most likely a situation of the tension between your two hands pulling the muzzle left. Work out how you wrap your hands around the grip so you stop pulling your guns left. If the guns don't shoot left rested or one handed, the obvious problem is your left hand when you add it in the grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rprecision Posted April 27, 2015 Author Share Posted April 27, 2015 You could try moving the rear sight to the right until the group centers. If, as the years pass, the group starts moving to the right you can then slowly move it to the left to keep the group centered. I could live with that, problem is if I use weak or strong side only I would have a different POI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rprecision Posted April 27, 2015 Author Share Posted April 27, 2015 If you are, stop. LOL. If not, let's try wrapping your left hand a little further around the right hand in the grip. If this exacerbates the problem making it worse, move your grip back the other way. It's most likely a situation of the tension between your two hands pulling the muzzle left. Work out how you wrap your hands around the grip so you stop pulling your guns left. If the guns don't shoot left rested or one handed, the obvious problem is your left hand when you add it in the grip. To answer your first question, yes. I have found myself doing that. I will quit. Tension, I have found that sometimes I have too much tension or torque with my left hand. I found I get a good deep grip with my strong hand and when I join my left hand I also reach to my right as deep as I can. When I extended the pistol the tension of my left hand increases and I torque my left hand pinching my right. This grip remains solid during dry fire but I wonder how it behaves under recoil. If I am doing this all wrong what should I focus on? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 You could try bending your left elbow slightly and rotating to the right just slightly - check by closing your eyes and lifting the gun up to eye level and making sure that you are aligned with the target vertically. Then shoot a group or two to see if that has any effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rprecision Posted April 27, 2015 Author Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) Groups shot with G19 and G34 both sights a centered in the slide The arrow was a coincidence but shows the problem Left target @ 20 yards right @ 7 yards Groups on the left are taken at 20ish yards on the right is 7 yards Edited April 27, 2015 by rprecision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rprecision Posted April 27, 2015 Author Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) Group shot supported @ 20 yards Sights centered G35 Group shot unsupported lower group @ 7 yards upper group @ 20 yards Grip with 23 I hope this provides some context and maybe guides a solution. I have a video I took shooting the G34 that I will have to get worked out if that would help as well Thanks Edited April 27, 2015 by rprecision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Quick answer -- maybe too much tension in your RIGHT hand/arm. Try extending in practice your right arm with empty gun as completely relaxed as possible, maybe having a friend check your forearm to be sure its relaxed. Pick up your grip with your left arm using it for 80% of the grip. Your arms are fighting when they have different jobs to do. Right arm does fine work.....lines up sights, squeezes trigger. Left arm does coarse work. Holds gun/grip, steers rough directions. Try it, I think you will find some surprises. Powering with right arm is a hard habit to break though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I think what mlmiller1 said in the post above is right on. Get rid of the tension in general, but most importantly get rid of the tension at the moment you fire the shot. You can shoot with your pinky finger, standing on your head, shooting on one foot with one finger in your nose; it doesn't matter; what matters is not disturbing the sights at the moment you fire the shot. Of course, a nice, firm, well balanced grip will certainly help get you there. This is a common problem. The next time you're at a IDPA, or USPSA match look at the targets after the match is over. Not always, but the most part the pattern of pasters on the targets tend to drift to the left. You should be calling your shots, and seeing your sight move to the left at the moment you fire the shot. Are you seeing it when it happens? My guess is you're probably not seeing it. Not always, but we tend to correct a problem, and/or it makes it easier to work on the problem if we can actually read and call the pulled shots entirely from what the sights do at the moment the shot is fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rprecision Posted May 1, 2015 Author Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) I didn't have a lot of time this week to try things out but gave it a go. I focused on trying to relax and or keep the tension balanced between hands. Using a loose grip, one that dose nothing to control recoil, seemed to shoot the best. My split times would suck and controlling the shots was non existent. Edited May 1, 2015 by rprecision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 looking at those targets trigger control is your issue. grip hard with your left hand, lock your wrist tendons and do not lock your elbows is all important but even with a great grip trigger control still trumps that ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rprecision Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 (edited) looking at those targets trigger control is your issue. grip hard with your left hand, lock your wrist tendons and do not lock your elbows is all important but even with a great grip trigger control still trumps that ...What specifically should I focus on with my trigger pull? When I practice dry firing I take up the slack, press straight to the rear (perceived), press through the break and hold it to the rear. I use the center of the first pad. Usually the front sight stays still, occasionally I notice it pop to the right ever so slightly. Perhaps am I bending the trigger finger too far back say at the third knuckle inducing the left movement at break? Thanks Edited May 2, 2015 by rprecision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDA Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 How is it you are you moving the third knuckle when pressing the trigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minorthreat Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Inspect the sides of your trigger for indications of wear. If you can't see it without disassemble the next time you strip the pistol take note of which side you have more wear on. This should tell if your pull is in fact straight back. I am working on this myself and have noticed heavier wear on the left side, I'm a righty too. If you are bending your knuckle I can see it pushing left as your finger wants to curl that way. Play with finger placement on the trigger and strong hand grip rolling your hand in towards your left, over the center line of the bore getting more palm on the back strap. And maybe exaggerate moving your pull in the opposite direction(right) to see how this effects things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlo86cj Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 You can throw in some dummy rounds and video from overhead. Dummy rounds have helped alot with my son shooting left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Relax the right arm & hand For smoother trigger pull. All the grip & control come from the left hand & arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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