Handling an unloaded firearm ahead of the RO command

[jh3g]

I have run into these circumstances myself as an SO. If there was an explicitly unsafe circumstance (someone downrange, etc.) I would have DQ'd immediately. Otherwise, I would use as a teaching tool. These kinds of lessons are permanently imprinted on one's brain, without the need for them to end their day early.

Use your best judgement based on the skill level of the shooter, the circumstances, etc. Alternately, if it was someone just being an unsafe jackass, they can get the hell off my range.

[BillR1]

The rulebook is clear...it's a DQ offense.

One of the biggest issues that people complain about in IDPA is SOs using "discretion" with the rules and not enforcing them fairly and according to what the book says. If you use "discretion" with a safety rule, what other rules are not being enforced??

A safety issue should NEVER be compromised.

[BillR1]

Absolutely a DQ. And being polite while administering a DQ isn't hard. It's unfortunate that the shooter was new, but with a little coaching, he should take this as a valuable lesson and come back to the next match. Bending rules and "cutting breaks" for safety violations is never a good idea.

Absolutely. I've disqualified two shooters and was polite and respectful to both of them. Both of them took it gracefully.

As 45 Raven said, giving someone a break for a major safety violation is not a good idea, and it isn't doing anyone a favor, especially the shooter.

Exactly!

[Kraj]

When I RO people i always make sure that the first thing I say to them is make ready. Even if they say something when they step up the the line my reply is make ready yes toes on marks.

[M1911]

M1911, so does your club run a half day/full day IDPA training class? Or do you just let newbies show up and shoot? I can tell you from running an IDPA club for 7 years, and having shot over 200 IDPA matches in that same time frame, that newbies only get about 3% of what you tell them the first time out. I am still in favor of liniency in this particular case. Each case is on it's own merit, but any certified RSO has a certain amout of discretion.

And I never, ever, never, put my hand on their gun. First of all, anything that happens, happens to fast to stop, and most times it will cause the newbies to turn with a loaded gun. Just my experience for over 45 years.....

1) We offer a full day Intro to IDPA class once per year.

2) We allow new shooters to show up and shoot.

3) Whether a new shooter has retained something they were told or not doesn't change a darn thing. Either they violated a rule or they didn't. Why they violated a rule is an explanation, but it doesn't justify the violation and it doesn't change the penalty associated with the infractions. This is a fundamental safety rule of IDPA. The rule book is very clear. It is a mandatory DQ.

4) No, the course of action you are suggesting is not exercising discretion, it is blatantly ignoring a rule which you have agreed to uphold.

5) Where did this talk of putting hands on a gun come from? I certainly never said or implied anything of the sort.

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[Jim Watson]

Most ranges hereabouts make it the first or second announcement; no handling of guns except in a Safe Area or under instructions from a Safety Officer.

Makes me nervous to see experienced shooters going around playing with their butts, gripping, fondling and lifting. Gun butts, that is. Do they not know where their holster is? Do they think somebody has glued their guns into the holster?

Edited April 28, 2015 by Jim Watson

[motosapiens]

Makes me nervous to see experienced shooters going around playing with their butts, gripping, fondling and lifting. Gun butts, that is. Do they not know where their holster is? Do they think somebody has glued their guns into the holster?

Really? seeing shooters fondle their unloaded guns in the holster doesn't make me nervous at all. I don't even notice it. I don't know why anyone *would* notice it.

[Bkreutz]

I usually rest my hand on the pistol in the holster, mainly because with my rig I can't get my hand into the pocket on that side.

[robport]

Thanks, now I don't feel so guilty. I stopped him before he pulled it out. Luckily, I knew he was new and the other guys on the line weren't, so I saw it coming.

I gave him an explanation (our head Club SO's favorite saying is "must should be nice") and told him he would get DQ'ed in our regular matches...it was an IDPA-like match (more for training than anything else).

He thanked me profusely later.

I was playing SO, with an amazing amount of covert observation by the real SO's going on...

Edited April 28, 2015 by robport

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've been at three matches where I saw a shooter walking around,

before the shooting began, with the hammer back on his holstered

gun.

I discretely mentioned it to the three shooters - they handled the

"problem" before any RO noticed.

[motosapiens]

I've been at three matches where I saw a shooter walking around,

before the shooting began, with the hammer back on his holstered

gun.

I discretely mentioned it to the three shooters - they handled the

"problem" before any RO noticed.

if an RO notices, all they will do is take the shooter to the safety table and fix the problem, then continue as normal. It's happened to me before. Same as if you have an empty mag in the gun.

Edited April 29, 2015 by motosapiens

[davsco]

that situation is spelled out in uspsa (walking around with cocked hammer, person taken to safe area to fix). not so clear in idpa.

2.7 below is in the safety section which gives dq's for unsafe handling; didn't see any mention of someone in this condition being walked to the safe area, but it also didn't specifically say dq:

2.7 The normal condition of pistols not in use during a Course of Fire (CoF) is holstered and unloaded, with hammer down or striker forward and magazine removed or cylinder empty.

[M1911]

I've been at three matches where I saw a shooter walking around,

before the shooting began, with the hammer back on his holstered

gun.

I discretely mentioned it to the three shooters - they handled the

"problem" before any RO noticed.

if an RO notices, all they will do is take the shooter to the safety table and fix the problem, then continue as normal. It's happened to me before. Same as if you have an empty mag in the gun.

Yup. I screwed up that way once at a Steel Challenge match. RO walked me to the safety table, I drew the gun, showed that it was clear, closed the slide, pulled the trigger, holstered and we were all set.

[M1911]

Makes me nervous to see experienced shooters going around playing with their butts, gripping, fondling and lifting. Gun butts, that is. Do they not know where their holster is? Do they think somebody has glued their guns into the holster?

Why? A holstered gun is a safe gun. The holster protects the trigger from being pulled. So if someone has their hand on the butt of the gun, it can't fire unless and until it is removed from the holster.

[twister]

What about the mistakes on a range officers part? I've been downrange pasting targets, in full view of everyone there, and the range officer gives the command to load and make ready. Nothing happened to him, I think he should have been dq'ed maybe next time he would have been a little more observant.

[Thomas H]

What about the mistakes on a range officers part? I've been downrange pasting targets, in full view of everyone there, and the range officer gives the command to load and make ready. Nothing happened to him, I think he should have been dq'ed maybe next time he would have been a little more observant.

Then you should probably submit that idea to the people who make the rules, and present a case for it to be added to the rules.

[robport]

What about the mistakes on a range officers part? I've been downrange pasting targets, in full view of everyone there, and the range officer gives the command to load and make ready. Nothing happened to him, I think he should have been dq'ed maybe next time he would have been a little more observant.

At least that's not as bad as the video the IDPA letter was based on....that was really dangerous!

I had something similar happen to me once though. I was fixing a stuck prop, behind a barrier when the RO called people to the line. He didn't have them load and make ready, but that was close enough for me. I don't know if he was going to check my spot and in his defense, he was still in front of the line, so wouldn't have had them load yet anyway. My manly voice (ok, I screamed like a little girl) broke his concentration and I think it scared him much more than me.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have caught it before he loaded them, but it happens, people get distracted. RO's have to go the bathroom or check our admin table or talk to someone about a PE. The scorekeeper and the others in the squad (especially the other people taping) share in that responsibility or at least should. Now, if I'm taping or fixing a prop, I make sure I'm visible to the RO until everyone else is too.

[M1911]

What about the mistakes on a range officers part? I've been downrange pasting targets, in full view of everyone there, and the range officer gives the command to load and make ready. Nothing happened to him, I think he should have been dq'ed maybe next time he would have been a little more observant.

Did you have a word with the MD?

[twister]

Yes, we both agreed we need to be more careful in the future. Were not in a race to get done.

[valerko]

i shoot a lot at local club . Weekly league and monthly matches this is HOT range. There's no need to unload and show clear on the end of the stage.

I usually holster the weapon and the go reload my mags and do "administrative reload" , where I replace the mag without un holstering my gun .

But I never take the gun out of the holster for any reason.Even if I wanna do press check before new string , I wait for OK from RSO

[robport]

I guess you can run a hot range, since it's not an IDPA sanctioned match. After you finish with a stage, what does the RSO do? Does he (or she) tell you to holster and declare the range safe, since you aren't unloading and showing clear?

At the place I shoot, they run a cold range with hot bays. They usually load one person per stage (usually four stages) all at once and after each person shoots, unload him or her until the stages are reset again. The range is completely cold while the stages are reset. The RSO's follow the IDPA range commands and they use certified IDPA SO's, even for the unsanctioned matches if they are referred to as IDPA.

[ArrDave]

We DQ for that as well. We take great pains to go over non-traditional starts in the new shooter brief to warn them that it is a DQ and that you only handle your firearm on the range under command of the SO. We've not had one for a while, but it does still happen, sadly.

[Craig N]

I shoot with 2 clubs locally.

Club 1 I'm an active part of the staff being scorekeeper and stuff for the same squad every month. The SO is a bud of mine and we work it just like a major match with correct range commands. I shoot at this club more it has really built a lot of habits.

Club 2 I hop around in different squads depending on who I'm talking to and decide to shoot with that day. I don't have to "work" a squad and I get to be more relaxed and just shoot. 1st time I shot there this year we got in a squad with SO's that I knew from the other club, but he still did the whole "Do you understand the course of fire" part and I being used to the 1st words outta the SO's mouth being Make Ready almost pulled my gun 3 times on "Do you understand".

[M1911]

but he still did the whole "Do you understand the course of fire" part and I being used to the 1st words outta the SO's mouth being Make Ready almost pulled my gun 3 times on "Do you understand".

That just ticks me off. It is a waste of time and not part of the standard commands.