FNC80 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 It's interesting to look at the firearms/shooting community and break it down into those who train with the intent of using a handgun in a defensive manner (gunfighting) and those who train with the intent of using a handgun in competition (IPSC, IDPA, Steel). This is a recent quote from Col. Cooper's Commentaries: "We continue to be amused by people who feel that shot group diameter on paper is an end in itself. As shooting master Louis Awerbuck put it, "I can always get a perfect shot group. All I have to do is fire just one shot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 A single shot does not a group make. Even the poorest scientist knows if the experiment is not repeatable there remain variables yet to be explored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Try exploring them when Col. Cooper or one of his disciples puts that one shot group in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNC80 Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 I think Awerbuck was referring to a single shot in terms of gunfighting v. a nice tight group of 5 from a bench, which is useless, from his perspective and training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I could ask him what he meant when I see him this summer. I just hope he doesn't slap me for being insolent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I could ask him what he meant when I see him this summer. I just hope he doesn't slap me for being insolent. Slap a BIG guy like you who carries 3 or 4 guns????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 But the topic was gunfighting v. practical shooting. I just don't see it as an 'Us against them" situation. If I get that 'one shot group' in a gunfight good for me. But I suspect I am more likely to get it if I am in the habit of getting two or more shots in an 'A' zone while running between targets under the stress of competition. Let me steal a line from Matt Burkett at last year's Area 5 class: (this may not be an exact quote but it will be close enough to make the point and I like to give credit where it is due on the rare occasions I remember to whom credit is due) "An untrained person faced with a lethal assault has trouble. A tactically trained shooter has a problem to solve. A sport shooter has a stage!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 It's interesting to look at the firearms/shooting community and break it down into those who train with the intent of using a handgun in a defensive manner (gunfighting) and those who train with the intent of using a handgun in competition (IPSC, IDPA, Steel). Why do so many people think these are exclusive? Gun = tool. Mind = weapon. I don't see the need for the antagonistic relationship between the sports and the martial arts. It's silly. - Gabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I think we're about to go down that well, WELL worn "martial artist vs. gamesman" road. This might be a good time to review this quote from Brian's Forum Guidelines: Intent This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions applicable to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) ;-) While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Slap a BIG guy like you who carries 3 or 4 guns????? I've met two people in my life that I know for certain could kill me with their bare hands. One was Louis, and the other was Dick Marcinko. I fear them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNC80 Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 I think we're about to go down that well, WELL worn "martial artist vs. gamesman" road. This might be a good time to review this quote from Brian's Forum Guidelines:Intent This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions applicable to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) ;-) While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged. Sorry...didn't know the regs re. defensive shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Rhino, I knew you were gonna mention Marcinko... Man I would have loved to meet that guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I'll try to let you know the next time he's in your area. I looked at his web site a few days ago, and it had no personal appearances listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 A third who could kill you is the cook who puts together that 9 pound hamberger...eat that thing and you'll clog enough arteries to kill three or four people.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmitz Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 A single shot does not a group make. Even the poorest scientist knows if the experiment is not repeatable there remain variables yet to be explored. Sample size is to small, validity and reliability are violated, hypothesis is rejected....intervening variables need to be subject of new research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTevolution Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 I shoot therefore I am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I miss Cooper's attitude...it kept most of us in line when we went to Gunsite... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I've been in two gun fights, my ipsc training helped in both. So did my LFI class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Diffrence between competion and a gunfight ? Second place in a match is pretty good.----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmcphersn Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I've been in two gun fights, my ipsc training helped in both. So did my LFI class. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What areas from IPSC were most helpful? Thanks, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 How to hit the A zone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 First one was clearing a jam, had a stove pipe and cleared it without thinking, in fact it wasn't till many hours later, in bed going through it that I remember I had cleared a jam. Walther PPK Second one was point shooting, don't remember the draw, or clicking the safety, just top of slide and the target, and 2 rounds. Para P12 with commander slide. Now that you don't think I'm a cold blooded killer, first one was robbery at gun point at a gas station, two guys got me from behind and each put a gun in my back. I gave them my money, like I was taught in my LFI class, a ten dollar bill around some ones around my credit card. Told them I wanted no trouble and didn't not want to see there faces. They walked off then saw how little they had gotten and turned to come back. Which had give me time to get my PPK out. They had there pistols buy there sides, looked like a auto and a revolver, I used my car for cover and put round in dirt in front of each of them. Then waited to see the reaction if they would have brought the guns up, I would have emptied that wimpy 32auto on them. I was lucky they went straight up, then around and were gone, have to admit I fired a few more rounds in the dirt behind them. They were fast a foot. Next one was bad guy and his pit bull, when I refused to give up the cash he dropped the leash on pit bull, I drew and dropped that dog faster than I ever thought I could move. Then I had muzzle on him, he had managed to get his hand on his pistol in his waist band, again if I had saw any movement I would have opened up, but he turned and ran also, I fired no more shots. I guess without LFI class I might have shot them both. But after learning about the hassles and lawsuites I think I made the best choices. I bet your wondering where the hell this kinda shit happens, one was at a well lite Exon station near Interstate standing under bright lights. Second one was in a parking lot, dark, behind a nice restarunt, but was adjacent to a bad neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Regarding defensive shooting, I am trying to remember who it was when asked about the advantage of "high capacity", replied something like: If you don't hit with the first or second shot, high capacity just means they will find more unfired rounds in the gun laying next to your body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Quick "El Jefe" story: We filmed an episode of SHOOTING GALLERY on Cooper for next season. Great interview — the interview with Col. Cooper that I'd always wanted to see. he's happy enough with the interview that h e loans me a few of his guns to go shoot, including his personal Commander. I mean, who's gonna pass up shooting Cooper's carry gun? I take it to a steel range at Gunsite and crank it up, filming all the while. So we rush the piece through editing so Cooper can show it to the NRA last week (which voted to include the show the NRA archives, BTW). They're all watching the show and there's Michael shooting El Jefe's carry gun...arms fully extended in an isosceles position. Gasps go up. "That boy doesn't know how to shoot right!" Maybe there's a 12-Step program somewhere... mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 They're all watching the show and there's Michael shooting El Jefe's carry gun...arms fully extended in an isosceles position. Gasps go up. "That boy doesn't know how to shoot right!"mb <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That is truly funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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