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Reload at 10 yards?


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I tried the el pres the other day. ....let's just say I'm no GM! I've set a goal at 6.00 which will be a chore to reach. A "good" draw facing the targets is high 1.3x -1.45, starting facing away is 1.5-1.7s, but those "good" clock times were only 25-30% A, a few D's and the rest C's. So, lots of work to do, but it's the trigger control more so than sight picture as I'm now starting to SEE the gun moving off center as it fires. (A milestone by the way!).

Reloads are 1.6- 1.8, but a couple clocked in the 1.39 range, so the Burkett drills must be starting to help. But, the % is still about 25-30 at those "good" clock speeds. I lose the bulk of time with slow splits in the .35-.45 range. Recoil management (I think) is poor as it takes a lot to wrestle the sights back onto the center.

Targets were addressed left to right, reload, then right to left. The center target has maybe 75% A hits, so when not flustered by draws or reloads accuracy is better.

Oh, my range is set up for 17 yds, so that's the distance I've been shooting.

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I tried the el pres the other day. ....let's just say I'm no GM! I've set a goal at 6.00 which will be a chore to reach. A "good" draw facing the targets is high 1.3x -1.45, starting facing away is 1.5-1.7s, but those "good" clock times were only 25-30% A, a few D's and the rest C's. So, lots of work to do, but it's the trigger control more so than sight picture as I'm now starting to SEE the gun moving off center as it fires. (A milestone by the way!).

Reloads are 1.6- 1.8, but a couple clocked in the 1.39 range, so the Burkett drills must be starting to help. But, the % is still about 25-30 at those "good" clock speeds. I lose the bulk of time with slow splits in the .35-.45 range. Recoil management (I think) is poor as it takes a lot to wrestle the sights back onto the center.

Targets were addressed left to right, reload, then right to left. The center target has maybe 75% A hits, so when not flustered by draws or reloads accuracy is better.

Oh, my range is set up for 17 yds, so that's the distance I've been shooting.

If you are shooting the El Prez at 17 yards then a 1.39 reload is plenty quick. That is almost double the distance for a regular/real el prez. Honestly a 1.5-1.7 turn and draw to 17 yards (assuming you can make that happen with an A hit every time) is pretty sporty as well.

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Guys, what if you had a 1.2 turn and draw.........Then maybe a 1.5 sec reload?

Is this slow?

Neither time is stellar is what I'm kinda reading ...... according to some posting.

I'd suggest a further break down.

Those two times above basically encompass two of the twelve shots of an El Prez.........plus all the so called movement (turn and draw/reload).

There are only 10 shots left. From here on out its just shooting.

What I'm saying is don't get discouraged. Last I looked the GM range in most divisions is right about 5 SECONDS TOTAL, if the hits are there.

So, using my above times, you've got 2.3 seconds left for ten shots and that's at splits of .23,.....VERY DOABLE.

This is just GM territory. The beginning.

A guy like Jake practiced until he could hang 12 on the paper, probably mostly all A's, and be below 4 sec. So 5-6 second El Pez's are yawners for him and some other top flight shooters.

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As you get better your perspective on fast will change as well. The times aren't out of reach. Just glance to the top of the mountain you're climbing, keep most of your focus on your feet.

This is great advice, thanks Jake!

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I tried the el pres the other day. ....let's just say I'm no GM! I've set a goal at 6.00 which will be a chore to reach. A "good" draw facing the targets is high 1.3x -1.45, starting facing away is 1.5-1.7s, but those "good" clock times were only 25-30% A, a few D's and the rest C's. So, lots of work to do, but it's the trigger control more so than sight picture as I'm now starting to SEE the gun moving off center as it fires. (A milestone by the way!).

Reloads are 1.6- 1.8, but a couple clocked in the 1.39 range, so the Burkett drills must be starting to help. But, the % is still about 25-30 at those "good" clock speeds. I lose the bulk of time with slow splits in the .35-.45 range. Recoil management (I think) is poor as it takes a lot to wrestle the sights back onto the center.

Targets were addressed left to right, reload, then right to left. The center target has maybe 75% A hits, so when not flustered by draws or reloads accuracy is better.

Oh, my range is set up for 17 yds, so that's the distance I've been shooting.

If you are shooting the El Prez at 17 yards then a 1.39 reload is plenty quick. That is almost double the distance for a regular/real el prez. Honestly a 1.5-1.7 turn and draw to 17 yards (assuming you can make that happen with an A hit every time) is pretty sporty as well.

Make no mistake, I'm only getting about 25% A hits pushing those speeds. It's still a dream to hit all A's! I've been pushing pushing pushing to learn the motions well enough to do it "newbee fast". Next goal is to hit more and more of those A's and keep the speed. As a beginner, I'm just starting to see more of what's going on while shooting and hopefully will be able to identify why it's being pulled / pushed off target. I mean with more detail than "I suck". Lol. With luck, greater accuracy will be the reward of all the dry firing done this winter.

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  • 1 month later...

el pres is one of the easier classifiers to shoot a 100% on as you're getting better, in my opinion.

it's also a fun drill to shoot.

my turn n draw is around 1.30 my reload the same, 1.30. leaves plenty of time in Prod for the splits and transitions to shoot all A in 6 seconds flat.

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Pretty grainy video from somebody's old phone.

This was back in the day a bit (not sure what the HHF is now). Jake was on the timer. El Prez at an Ohio match. 100% on the classifier at the time. Production. 10-Alpha, 2 Charlie (IIRC)

Reload was probably ~ 1.25s (similar to the turn and draw) Alphas before and after the reload.

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The more stages I shoot and the more I see how other shooters place in matches relative to the raw skills I observe, the more clear it becomes that it's the shooting. You don't need superhuman draws and reloads, but you do need to shoot at a fast clip and get a lot of points without incurring penalties. Very fast draws and reloads on top of that are great, but not necessary to do well in matches.

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Oh...here is Jake with a totally failed reload on Steel El Prez. (see the dust poof)

Honestly, with a miss like that, not sure why he even got up that morning. :)

(IIRC, the 3.19 on the timer in the beginning of that vid was a clean run ;) )

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  • 3 weeks later...

As an open shooter I can tell you that sub 1 second reloads at a 10 yard target is not very difficult at all. Pretty confident I could go 10/10 on that whether it was in open or limited and I'm just a "regular gm".

Lol this made me grin !

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I dont think sub 1.0 reloads at 10 yds with A's is actually very realistic with most anybody...let alone GM's

That's haulin for 10 yds. as well as, if you actually broke that down within a classifier run or even shot to shot, everything would have to be absolutely perfect to achieve sub 1.0.

I think I can reload fairly quick. Some might even say "sporty" even. But a CONSISTENT reload at sub 1.0 or even at 1.0 isn't realistic.

If you think you're losing time on El Prez due to a 1.2-1.3 reload, I'd ask you to look at the data again and convince yourself otherwise. Look at the draw and more importantly, the 4 transitions times. If your transitions aren't at least matching your splits, there's your "low hanging fruit"

Well, let's break it down then. YouTube "3 second el presidente," and you win find a Ben stoeger video of a 3.76 run, and a Vogel run of 3.67. So, let's use that.

3.67 raw time minus let's say .9 seconds for a draw gives us 2.77 seconds.

2.77 seconds minus the 1.2 second reload you claim is perfectly adequate for very fast times leaves us 1.57 seconds.

The first 10 remaining splits gives us an exceptionally sporty .157 average splits and transitions. I'm an A, and I've shot maybe one .16 split, ever. Doing 5 of them in a row, with transitions, seems inhuman to me at my current skull level.

Same math but with a .9 second reload gives us .187 splits and transitions, which, while fast, is much more doable. I can shoot in the .19 range (though not with guaranteed alphas at 10 yards by any means haha), and I bet lots of shooters could.

What does all this mean? I respectfully disagree that a fast reload isn't important for fast el prez times, and I would say the math agrees.

BUT none of that is super applicable to regular stage shooting. Reloads are almost always masked by movement in this game.

To be fair the original question was in regards to a GM run on El Pres, which to do that is around a 1.3 second reload as you have already stated.

I agree though, to say that you get sub 1 second reloads on a 10 yard target is a little unrealistic. POSSIBLY with an open gun, massive magwell, and a dot. But I think for a production shooter the average would be around 1.2 or so seconds.

But in regards to the videos you are referencing lets be fair here. The difference between a regular GM and Ben Stoeger or Bob Vogel is massive, and in all reality I don't know how you could compare a regular GM and those guys. I would have to believe they are probably pushing that drill to its absolute limits, and I would judge that they have a .85 draw and reload.

Either way to me this is all about a drill, that as we discussed can be hundo'd with a 1.5 second draw and load.

Wyatt

its been a long time but I recall doing El PRez in just over 4 seconds. This was so long ago it was before Grand Master existed.....

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  • 1 month later...

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