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10 mm loads for major power factor


bigarm

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I would like to know what powder to try to make major with 200 grain powder coated cast bullets in 10mm. I have Power Pistol, CFE Pistol, Bullseye, W231, True Blue and maybe some Unique. I have loaded 7.3 grains of Power Pistol at about 1.245 oal and am getting an average of 1139 fps and I used a power factor calculator and got 227 which is way more than needed. I had loaded (but not chronographed) 7.1 and 7.2 grains and they seemed to be hitting quite low, although it is possible I was pulling the shots. 7.3 grains seems to hit about correct height, although I am quite left. Should I try a lower amount of Power Pistol again or one of the other powders? I did see 700x and 800x at a local store but have never used them and don't know if they are appropriate for 10 mm.

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Re: 200gn Lead Bullets in 10mm Auto

Get Lyman's 4th Cast Bullet Handbook

They show start/max loads as follows:

TG: 4.8-5.4gn

Red Dot: 5.0-5.6gn

Bullseye: 5.8-6.5gn (I would start at the Red Dot start load myself)

231/HP38: 5.7-6.4gn

Power Pistol: 6.8-7.6gn

True Blue: 7.2-8.1gn

Unique: 5.7-6.4gn (this is the lowest velocity starting load at 1000 fps--which is still a PF of 200

You should be using a fast powder for such a low PF/velocity (Am. Select, Bullseye, Red Dot, Solo 1000, and AA2), and it will almost certainly be less than a manual's start load. A light charge of 4.6gn of 700X has produced 941fps (188 PF).

Somewhere around 3.9-4.2gn of 231/HP38 will give you major PF.

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  • 2 weeks later...

sorry I haven't shot any 200gr bullets in my 10mm, but I have pretty much settled on two loads for my Gen4. for my new Starline Brass, I run 9.0gr of 800x under a Hornady 180gr XTP, which according to my chrono is giving about 1250fps. I also cast Lee 180gr truncated cone, standard lube grove bullets and powder coat them and have been having great success with 10.0 gr of Bluedot that average about 1170-1180fps on the chrono. I run the XTPs through virgin brass, then they go to my plinker pile and I reload them with the PC Lee's, so far I have as many as 6 reloadings on the cases, without any splits. There is a lot of Data over on the 10mm forums, lots of pasting of factory load data and reloading manual pages.

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What gun are you shooting them in? Curiosity has the best of me. I am playing with a highly modified Delta.

800x is one of the hottest powders for 10mm in the velocities it is producing. I am using Titegroup right now and doing well although I am not a fan of 1.260 and will be shortening it up to 1.245 to see if it functions more smoothly. I'm loading for non target applications so not looking to sacrifice horsepower.

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I am shooting a new stainless Delta Elite. I have shortened my loads to about 1.248 or so and loaded some with 6.8 grains of Power Pistol. The gun cycles fine at that load. I will chronograph them and a 38 super load I am working on when I get a decent day.

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Loaded 6.8 grains of Power Pistol at 1.248.oal and got and average of 1100 fps with an extreme spread of 21 and standard deviation of 6. Pretty consistent. Still a power factor of 214, but noticeably less recoil. Think this might be a nice load for everyday use.

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800x is good powder if you want velocity, as it produces faster FPS readings with the same pressure levels as other powders, but it really shines in the upper end. I don't plan on loading mine any hotter, but several of the companies that load to nuclear levels use 800x as I'm learning. Loaded at lower velocities, its supposed to have wider variances from velocity from shot to shot. One thing that people hate is how large the flakes are, it really has the largest flakes of powder I have ever played with, but I don't load or shoot very high volume in 10mm, so it all goes across my single stage and every powder charge is measured on my auto powder dispensing digital scale. I didn't have any pressure signs at all with the 800x at 1240-1250 with the Hornady's, but started to see pressure signs about 1210fps with BlueDot in my particular gun, which is a newer GenIV Glock 20

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Ok, dug up my newest Hornady manual, now these are for 200gr Jacketed bullets. they list 1.260 as Max COL

Powder start velocity max velocity

Unique 5.3gr 850 6.4 1000

PowerPistol 6.0 850 7.6 1050

IMR 800x 6.0 850 8.1 1050

Bluedot 6.9 850 9.4 1150

Longshot 5.7 850 7.3 1050

there is also Data for Herco, V 3n37, IMR SR-4756, HS6, AA #5, 7 &9. I can tell you that Longshot is a great powder in 10mm, meters great, gives solid repeatable numbers and is probably one of the 4 best powders for 10mm along with Accurate #9, Bluedot and 800x.

The Hornady manual 90% of the time is very conservative, but once in a while its on the money. Remember this is for Jacketed Data, not Cast Bullets and my experience with the Powder coating is that no matter what charge you run them at, they will run about 50fps faster than data for cast or jacketed, the powder coating is slippery stuff.

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I will have to keep an eye out for Longshot. Haven't seen any, but really haven't seen much of anything. If I run into something I pick it up. That's how I ended up with some Power Pistol. Hadn't used it, but was in a store and there was some, so bought some.

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I know there's not much powder out there, at least not in my neck of the woods, but I'd suggest a faster powder for major power factor than Longshot. Longshot seems to be better suited for maximum loads in both .40 and 10mm. The experts here advise that faster powders tend to recoil less than slower powders.

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im not sure I understand why anyone would want to drive a 10mm at mediocre 40 velocities. I got into a 10mm so that I could have a performance level above my 40's at safer pressure levels. Brass is expensive for the 10 and I don't shoot it like I do any of my 40 guns. If low 900's is what your after, perhaps a 40sw barrel for your 10mm would be a good purchase, then you could run the 40 ammo in the heavier gun, which would help reduce recoil further.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have been loading 10mm at 1.245 and using Titegroup and AA#7. I was getting pressure signs at 6.4gn Titegroup and it really doesn't eject all that well although it is very clean. I started playing with AA#7 and it was a little more dirty so I adjusted my crimp a bit tighter and have seen more positive combustion. I am at 12.5gn AA#7 and the gun is ejecting very positively with an 18.5# recoil spring and with both FMJ and JHP. I have polished the feed ramp and chamber to a mirror shine and believe I may go back to a 22# recoil spring for easier brass recovery. Recoil and report are exciting and if I work up any more I will look into harder primers than Federal Large Pistol Magnums.

ETA: 180GR Delta Precision JHP and FMJ loaded to 1.245" over 6.4gn Titegroup or 12.5gn AA#7. These are above the conservative maximums so work up gently with a fully supported chamber NOT AND/OR NEVER a stock Colt Delta or Glock barrel.

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im not sure I understand why anyone would want to drive a 10mm at mediocre 40 velocities. I got into a 10mm so that I could have a performance level above my 40's at safer pressure levels. Brass is expensive for the 10 and I don't shoot it like I do any of my 40 guns. If low 900's is what your after, perhaps a 40sw barrel for your 10mm would be a good purchase, then you could run the 40 ammo in the heavier gun, which would help reduce recoil further.

I hear this a lot, mostly when people find out I'm shooting a 10mm at ~140pf in production.

'Why don't you just replace the barrel and shoot .40?' - the #1 reason is because it's not legal. The second reason is because a 10mm cartridge will feed better in a large frame gun than the shorter .40, even if you load it long.

Remember that the .40 came about not just for the downloaded 10mm power, but also because it would fit in a 9mm length frame, with a smaller grip.

I think it's reasonable to hold that, from a performance standpoint, the .40 is a subset of the 10mm. The .40 may be marginally better at the very bottom of the performance envelope, but the 10mm definitely has more horse power at the top.

'But 10mm brass is expensive' - as of this AM, Starline has both 10mm and .40 available, the 10mm is $162/K, and the .40 is $154.50/K. That doesn't seem like much of a price penalty. 'But I use once fired/range brass and it's basically free.' - This may be a fair point, but at the pressures seen even at major pf, how long would 10mm brass last? I can't answer that as I've not had to toss any yet.

On the negative side of the used .40 brass issue, how many times can you load a piece of .40 brass that has been shot at major pf out of a Glock? I can't answer that either, but the one and only time I've ever had a case failure was in a .40 STI limited gun, and the case was one that I had 'picked up' at a match, so one time less than that.

For minor pf it seems reasonable to me to shoot .40 if you have a small frame gun, and 10mm if you have a large. If your shooting major, the small v. large frame still applies, but also consider that if you have a choice, a major pf .40 is at or near the top of it performance envelope, and most of the starting loads for 10mm are more than 165 pf.

Just my $.02

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Interesting perspective sir. I think .40 is definitely not something I'd ever buy brand new. Shoot it from range pick up again and again. I don't do the block chamber on 10mm for large volume shooting. You're braver than I am. I couldn't see the picking up of the large volume of brass in a match. Seems like 10 is popular to those not shooting it at the same time you are making the brass walk.

Interesting observation about base line 10mm loads being Major. Supposedly this is why CDP is .45 only in IDPA apparently a legendary shooter was convinced that weak 10 would drive the .45's under a rock. Shame that they listened to him. Ruined a great chance for the 10mm.

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'block chamber' ? Did you mean Glock chamber? I'm using a BAR-STO...

I've not noticed my fellow competitors nicking my brass at matches, but then I'm still working out of unmolested stock from my misspent youth playing with 9x25, so I may not have noticed the shrinkage.

Who was this 'legendary shooter' you speak of?

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Was at Cabela's in Kalispell today and they had Longshot, so I picked up a pound to try. I looked it up and it seems that it can be used in several calibers I load for so thought I would try it. Probably should have bought 2 pounds as powder suitable for pistols is not found here often.

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im not sure I understand why anyone would want to drive a 10mm at mediocre 40 velocities. I got into a 10mm so that I could have a performance level above my 40's at safer pressure levels. Brass is expensive for the 10 and I don't shoot it like I do any of my 40 guns. If low 900's is what your after, perhaps a 40sw barrel for your 10mm would be a good purchase, then you could run the 40 ammo in the heavier gun, which would help reduce recoil further.

I hear this a lot, mostly when people find out I'm shooting a 10mm at ~140pf in production.

'Why don't you just replace the barrel and shoot .40?' - the #1 reason is because it's not legal.

In USPSA Production it is legal.

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This is what I read:

6) I have a Glock-20 (10mm). May I switch to a .40S&W barrel? Both barrels are the same “caliber”, and .40 ammo and brass are so much less expensive.

ANSWER: NO. NROI has deemed that “caliber” means “caliber and chambering”. Glock has never offered a Glock-20 chambered for .40S&W, so changing to that barrel would make your gun a “new/unapproved model” which would not be legal for USPSA Production Division.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-nroi-hottopics.php

Have you read something different?

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This is what I read:

6) I have a Glock-20 (10mm). May I switch to a .40S&W barrel? Both barrels are the same “caliber”, and .40 ammo and brass are so much less expensive.

ANSWER: NO. NROI has deemed that “caliber” means “caliber and chambering”. Glock has never offered a Glock-20 chambered for .40S&W, so changing to that barrel would make your gun a “new/unapproved model” which would not be legal for USPSA Production Division.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-nroi-hottopics.php

Have you read something different?

Was a hot topic later than 2009. Last I heard was caliber is based on bore diameter, and 10mm/40 or 9/38 barrel swaps would be legal.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=215994&hl=%2Bcaliber+%2Bproduction+%2B38#entry2405192

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'block chamber' ? Did you mean Glock chamber? I'm using a BAR-STO...

I've not noticed my fellow competitors nicking my brass at matches, but then I'm still working out of unmolested stock from my misspent youth playing with 9x25, so I may not have noticed the shrinkage.

Who was this 'legendary shooter' you speak of?

I was referring to a Glock chamber, but was autocorrected.

The shooter in question is Leatham. He was the one responsible for the protection on the .45 in CDP according to the word on the range. Who knows if it will be admitted to, but he did help along 8 shot minor in revo...walks like a duck...

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... For minor pf it seems reasonable to me to shoot .40 if you have a small frame gun, and 10mm if you have a large. If your shooting major, the small v. large frame still applies, but also consider that if you have a choice, a major pf .40 is at or near the top of it performance envelope, and most of the starting loads for 10mm are more than 165 pf.

Just my $.02

I agree that the 10mm can be much more powerful than the .40 S&W, but the .40 can easily make major power factor. Hodgdon lists a 180 grain bullet recipe at 1159 fps for 208 power factor in the .40

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I agree that the 10mm can be much more powerful than the .40 S&W, but the .40 can easily make major power factor. Hodgdon lists a 180 grain bullet recipe at 1159 fps for 208 power factor in the .40

My Hodgdon book lists the 180/1159 as a max load... but, the 180/1009 load is the starting load, and to your point, easily makes major. But, this is at a COAL of 1.125". What happens when people start loading these long to make them feed better in their guns? If you run the length out to 1.165" or so, then put enough powder into it to make major, what does that do to the pressure? At first gloss, the extra length may seem like it would lower the pressure, but your using more powder. That max load (180/1159) is with 8.0 grn of Longshot, 8.5 grn is the starting load for 10mm with the same projectile, the same powder, pushing it to 1221 fps,, but at a pressure of 31,000 psi, given a 1.26 COAL. So, is loading .40 long and adding powder to make major safe pressure wise? Or is it more like loading a 10mm short, and using a lower pressure rated case?

And yes, I know that people have been doing this for years successfully, I even did it for a number of years. But, I had one go pop, and I'd rather not do that again.

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