Prod Div weight limit

[pmt]

Reading the March BoD minutes there is an item about a weight limit for PD. Is there a gun out there that is that heavy and suitable for PD?

General Discussion of Production Division

Changes

-

Discussion of instituting a maximum weight of 52oz

in Production division while maintaining all of the

current modification rules of Production.

-

AD’s will reach out to their constituency for feedback

for further discussion at next meeting.

Edited March 24, 2015 by pmt

[BritinUSA]

I think the Sphinx is the heaviest Production gun at the moment, I don't think its that heavy though.

2000 H (26 oz.), 2000 P (31 oz.), 2000 PS (35 oz.), 2000 S (35 oz.), 3000 Compact (31 oz.), 3000 Competition 40S&W (33.2 oz.), 3000 Competition 9mm (33.2 oz.), 3000 Competiton Standard 9mm&40 (48.3 oz.), 3000 Standard Series Stainless (50.3 oz.), 3000 Standard Series Target (50.4 oz.), 3000 Tactical Series Stainless (47.3 oz.), Titanium (50.1 oz.)

Edited March 24, 2015 by BritinUSA

[bgary]

There was discussion about allowing the addition of internal weight, in order to close the weight gap between (for example) a Glock and a CZ/Tanfo.

I have two issues with that direction:

One, we'd have to be really careful to ensure that there was clarity about how such mods could be made. I would *not* be in favor of relaxing Production-division rules around (for example) external mods in order to add weight.

But, two, IMHO it wouldn't actually accomplish the goal of reducing a perceived competitive gap. The owner of a CZ/Tanfo could just as easily add weight, and you'd end up with [at least] as much disparity as before.

$.02

[Sarge]

Unbelievable...... Once this door gets opened Production will forever be tainted

[PKT1106]

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

This is also where NROI needs to step up and make sure manufacturers are putting the correct weights for their products. The CZ75 SP-01 is 41.2oz on the Production list, but CZ's website says 2.400 pounds, which is 38.4oz. Which is correct?

[EngineerEli]

I really hope nothing like that would ever happen, because it would force guns to be REMOVED from the production gun list... Lots of unhappy (no longer) production gun owners...

The reality is, more weight is not always a good thing. If you cant handle recoil it helps, but it really slows down your transitions, and is not the end all be all. I just don't see the sense in limiting it. I absolutely do think something needs to be done about the accuracy of the weights shown on the production gun list though!!!

Edited March 24, 2015 by EngineerEli

[Duke Nukem]

Shadows, Stock IIs and Stock IIIs are all heavier than that. In spite of being hard to get they make up 50% of the production division.

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

[Sarge]

Shadows, Stock IIs and Stock IIIs are all heavier than that. In spite of being hard to get they make up 50% of the production division.

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

i thought Glock was still the most used gun in production.

The guns you mention can't make up 50% already.

[PKT1106]

Shadows, Stock IIs and Stock IIIs are all heavier than that. In spite of being hard to get they make up 50% of the production division.

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

Every Shadow on the CZ website that has specifications shows 2.4lbs, that is 38.4oz. Which is correct, website or list?

Stock II shows 1180g on Tanfoglio Website, which is 41.62oz, and 43oz on the EAA website but shows 44oz on the list.

Stock III shows 2.1lbs on EAA website, 33.6oz, but has 45.85oz on the list.

What is the correct weight?

[bikerburgess]

Shadows, Stock IIs and Stock IIIs are all heavier than that. In spite of being hard to get they make up 50% of the production division.

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

Every Shadow on the CZ website that has specifications shows 2.4lbs, that is 38.4oz. Which is correct, website or list?

Stock II shows 1180g on Tanfoglio Website, which is 41.62oz, and 43oz on the EAA website but shows 44oz on the list.

Stock III shows 2.1lbs on EAA website, 33.6oz, but has 45.85oz on the list.

What is the correct weight?

the list is whats enforced and normally more accurate than the manufactures web pages (especially the EAA web site) the manufacturer lists a weight with empty magazine on the form when they certify the production requirements are met and that is the weight we use.

[pmt]

Shadows, Stock IIs and Stock IIIs are all heavier than that. In spite of being hard to get they make up 50% of the production division.

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

Every Shadow on the CZ website that has specifications shows 2.4lbs, that is 38.4oz. Which is correct, website or list?

Stock II shows 1180g on Tanfoglio Website, which is 41.62oz, and 43oz on the EAA website but shows 44oz on the list.

Stock III shows 2.1lbs on EAA website, 33.6oz, but has 45.85oz on the list.

What is the correct weight?

I will assume that when each gun was inspected by NROI for inclusion on the PD gun list that it was weighed, and that the actual weight, including an empty magazine, is what is listed on the PD list.

My SP01 Shadow was 42oz last time it was checked at the Chrono stage.

Edited March 24, 2015 by pmt

[bikerburgess]

Shadows, Stock IIs and Stock IIIs are all heavier than that. In spite of being hard to get they make up 50% of the production division.

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

i thought Glock was still the most used gun in production.

The guns you mention can't make up 50% already.

I believe if you look at the last front site you will see there were more steel framed guns at the nationals than plastic

the closes link i could find on here is this http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=211756&p=2355084

[PKT1106]

Shadows, Stock IIs and Stock IIIs are all heavier than that. In spite of being hard to get they make up 50% of the production division.

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

Every Shadow on the CZ website that has specifications shows 2.4lbs, that is 38.4oz. Which is correct, website or list?

Stock II shows 1180g on Tanfoglio Website, which is 41.62oz, and 43oz on the EAA website but shows 44oz on the list.

Stock III shows 2.1lbs on EAA website, 33.6oz, but has 45.85oz on the list.

What is the correct weight?

I will assume that when each gun was inspected by NROI for inclusion on the PD gun list that it was weighed, and that the actual weight, including an empty magazine, is what is listed on the PD list.

My SP01 Shadow was 42oz last time it was checked at the Chrono stage.

I emailed Troy about this and he stated what is used on the PD list is what the manufacturer submits in their approval paperwork. There was no mention of NROI inspection or weighing by NROI. If Troy would like to clarify here, I welcome it.

[PKT1106]

Shadows, Stock IIs and Stock IIIs are all heavier than that. In spite of being hard to get they make up 50% of the production division.

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

i thought Glock was still the most used gun in production.

The guns you mention can't make up 50% already.

I believe if you look at the last front site you will see there were more steel framed guns at the nationals than plastic

the closes link i could find on here is this http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=211756&p=2355084

I don't think 177 shooters is enough of a sample. Especially given the shooters and the 52% to 48% survey.

[Sarge]

I looked at that too and didn't think much about it. Maybe on the national match level they are more common but I have only seen a stock II once that I recall. I think the average Joe is a plastic gun user in Production

[cnote]

let me advice you with some advise about the %

[Sarge]

let me advice you with some advise about the %

[bikerburgess]

Sarge I get what you are saying but the point is still that the people who are arguanly most concerned with being competitive are more often than not using a steel gun.

Ps I have several steel frame production guns but lately I have been shooting my GLOCK more. I don't be leave the gun actually makes anywhere near as much difference as most people believe.

[Strick]

People in general are funny, shooters even more so. People flock to the Stock II's and CZ's for the same reason racers flock to a certain make.....they always think that is what will put them over the top. In almost all cases they are wrong.

I shot a CZ (before most even heard of them) and switched to a Glock, for me it works better, if a CZ or Tanfo works better for you great. As a Glock shooter I don't give a crap if a dude wants to pay $2K for a production gun go for it, it doesn't make my choice any less effective for me. Hell, I am for letting 1911's into production sans magwell.

On another note.....I wonder if the weight difference people have mentioned is due to mag not being included on the web posted weight..............no I doubt it......has to be some nefarious USPSA stuff.

[Chuck Anderson]

40 ounce limit covers almost all of the guns I think most people consider appropriate for Production division.

This is also where NROI needs to step up and make sure manufacturers are putting the correct weights for their products. The CZ75 SP-01 is 41.2oz on the Production list, but CZ's website says 2.400 pounds, which is 38.4oz. Which is correct?

That's an easy one to answer. The heavier weight is correct. Here's how I know. In 2006 or 2007, not long after the weight list came out I was at the Nats in Tulsa and had my SP-01 weighed at chrono. I was the first shooter to have an SP-01 weighed there and was bumped to open. The only mod to the gun was the thin aluminum grips. I was not pleased and made that known to Amidon. He said CZ had not provided him the correct weight after several tries so he used what was on the website. We went over to the CZ vendor table, grabbed a stock CZ SP-01, weighed it at the chrono table and the figure you see on the list is the weight of that particular gun. My guess is the website weight is without magazine. That's one of the big problems with the weights listed. Trying to get accurate weights from manufacturers is very difficult. Most don't care about USPSA. Certainly not enough verify weights and fill out our silly forms.

[Stician]

Who cares, if a Stock II is that much of a gamer changer I don't see the stat of 10% or less is A class nationally improve much in the past year. Unless everyone improved and the bell curve is taller from tail to tail.