peterthefish Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 One more reason to shoot 9mm Major... You know that guy was just trying to get his 38 Super Brass back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Nobody got hurt and we can learn from it. All the flaming is unnecessary. I know a few years ago I staffed an Area match and I made it a habit to check all the way down range and be the last one back up front as much as I could, but every RO who sees this will hopefully remember it and it will ultimately increase our sport's safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 So glad there are no injures. Just another reason why I like see-through walls. Of course verifying the stage is clear comes first but it doesn't hurt to be able to see downrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsessiveshooter Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 My favorite comment on the youtube video was something like "I guess that's a no-shoot?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) This is a significant teaching moment. It's a rare occurrence (one stage in how many stages shot by how many shooters across the country each year?) but one we can prevent. I agree that see-through walls are the best for safety. We still have barrels (single, or stacked) and other visual obstacles that someone could be crouching behind, for whatever reason. Let's all go all the way back to basics when we RO. If we can't see every part of the stage (i.e., if it isn't just targets on sticks) we should stay downrange and be the last one back to the start line. That way the entire stage can be seen from behind, a better view than from the start position. In the long run time isn't the first priority, it's safety. (Safety, fairness, and efficiency, in that order...) Edited March 23, 2015 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I saw this video on two other social media sources. When I have a stage that has barriers, I always walk out to the furthest point down range and walk the stage backwards and check the entire stage before going hot. My questions is... Who is taping because you can see the guy on the right side of the camera. Why didn't they scream STOP before the string started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Winters Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 With every match and stage, there are issues that maybe should have been changed or done differently after it is over. Luckily nobody was hurt. As a review, what could have been differently to reduce or eliminate the repeat? Snow fence walls would have helped. Also if the vision barriers were not so low to the ground so that vision wasn't completely blocked. Having the people down range check themselves would help. I call this a sweeper and this is someone who will act as the last man off the range and letting the RO know the last person is off the field. Yes, the RO, lacking any other support should have checked. I also understand that given a good sized squad the idea that others are checking. The person down range should have heard a clear RO command, especially the standby. He may have been a new shooter as it looked like he was still taping while the shooting was happening. Why was he not yelling STOP? Maybe he had double hearing protection. Who knows. I see this, primarily as a problem of stage design in the props used that lead to the vision block. I know that you use what you got and it isn't always what you would prefer. It happened and it is what it is. The challenge is what can be done to eliminate it from happening again. This is not unique to USPSA as it is a challenge at any shooting event. It is the solutions we seek. Paul : -)# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) With every match and stage, there are issues that maybe should have been changed or done differently after it is over. Luckily nobody was hurt. As a review, what could have been differently to reduce or eliminate the repeat? Snow fence walls would have helped. Also if the vision barriers were not so low to the ground so that vision wasn't completely blocked. Having the people down range check themselves would help. I call this a sweeper and this is someone who will act as the last man off the range and letting the RO know the last person is off the field. Yes, the RO, lacking any other support should have checked. I also understand that given a good sized squad the idea that others are checking. The person down range should have heard a clear RO command, especially the standby. He may have been a new shooter as it looked like he was still taping while the shooting was happening. Why was he not yelling STOP? Maybe he had double hearing protection. Who knows. I see this, primarily as a problem of stage design in the props used that lead to the vision block. I know that you use what you got and it isn't always what you would prefer. It happened and it is what it is. The challenge is what can be done to eliminate it from happening again. This is not unique to USPSA as it is a challenge at any shooting event. It is the solutions we seek. Paul : -)# The RO should be the "sweeper". No way I trust another shooter to clear my stage when I am the guy signing the blame block. And the guy was not taping targets. It appears he was policing brass in which case he could have gone back down range after the RO cleared the stage. Who knows? Edited March 23, 2015 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz-0 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 OK, just how does that happen? Does anyone know if the guy taping/picking up brass has significant hearing loss or something? I'm not grasping how that much of a stage gets shot without someone down range freaking out and yelling stop as loud as they can. Perhaps something regarding pit layout and not being able to tell if the shooting was their pit or the pit next door? As it looks on video, it seems like quite an epic level of failure to communicate. We have a belt and suspenders kind of approach to safety. This stage it looks like it was pants around the ankles and only the shooter keeping the 4 rules in mind and shutting it down that kept it form being a bad bad situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 One of the questions that needs to be asked is "where was the rest of the squad"? Why was he the only one taping? If you look closely you'll see he actually has a brass wheel collecting brass. I'm assuming the squad was done taping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I wish this video wasn't in the public domain, but it is so I'm going to address it on RECOIL Web. It is a learning lesson for things to be avoided in the future. There are a lot of gun owners posting about this on social media that don't understand the safety record of action shooting sports in general or how procedural failures allowed this to occur. If anyone knows where this occurred or has more first hand details please e-mail me at SinistralRifleman@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1soldier Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 One of the many reasons I don't pick up brass until after the match is over....Even if it means losing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 OK, just how does that happen? Does anyone know if the guy taping/picking up brass has significant hearing loss or something? I'm not grasping how that much of a stage gets shot without someone down range freaking out and yelling stop as loud as they can. Perhaps something regarding pit layout and not being able to tell if the shooting was their pit or the pit next door? There actually seem to be more than a few who are trying to challenge the validity of the video. They are pointing to extremely poor video quality for this day and age, so many mags on belt yet shooting 20 rounds before reloading, the RO looking right in the direction of the guy standing there and not seeing him, The camera person looking right at the guy as well, poor range commands, the guy down range being totally oblivious to rounds impacting berms near him, etc. Heck, this could be totally made up for all one knows. I guess it's possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb06 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 While I have no reason to question why this is not a good situation I do have some concerns as to who, what, why? Who would post this right away to social media? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it is not going to be a good thing if you post it. Looking to get back at someone? What is really going on here, I am somewhat questioning along with several other people on how and the hell did this guy not hear or realize sooner shooting was going on, along with the reaction from the shooter and RO just doesn't seem surprised enough at what they just encountered. Again Why would you be so eager to post something like this so fast knowing the fallout it would have. Yes I know it is a very good teaching experience and I fully support it being brought out into the open for discussion but something just doesn't make sense about the whole ordeal, faked, staged, video shopped I don't know just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I don't believe it's a fake. I wish like Hell it was, but...no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) There seems to be a cluster of missed opportunities, all stacked together to create this unique situation. With those white walls there should have been someone checking the stage (someone mentioned "sweeping"; that's a new term for me) the stage from back to front, who would have been the last one forward. Actually, I guess it should be done with a stage that complex, with or without white walls. I really don't get how the guy downrange was so oblivious that he didn't pay attention to the fact that there was a match going on. Or the range commands, or the sound of *nearby* shots. Or that the RO and/or shooter didn't notice *movement* downrange - that's usually more of a giveway than shape (and if the guy wasn't moving, why was he standing like a statue). Tunnel vision on the part of the shooter, maybe, but both of them? I say check the range from the back, every time, is a good idea. It doesn't use much time, and it adds another layer to our safety protocol. Caution, more caution, and even overcaution should be the rule. Edited March 23, 2015 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachJ Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 OK, just how does that happen? Does anyone know if the guy taping/picking up brass has significant hearing loss or something? I'm not grasping how that much of a stage gets shot without someone down range freaking out and yelling stop as loud as they can. Perhaps something regarding pit layout and not being able to tell if the shooting was their pit or the pit next door? There actually seem to be more than a few who are trying to challenge the validity of the video. They are pointing to extremely poor video quality for this day and age, so many mags on belt yet shooting 20 rounds before reloading, the RO looking right in the direction of the guy standing there and not seeing him, The camera person looking right at the guy as well, poor range commands, the guy down range being totally oblivious to rounds impacting berms near him, etc.Heck, this could be totally made up for all one knows. I guess it's possible From what I've heard, the ro at least is real, he does not have an official ro cert.It was a "monster" match or something along those lines, and apparently this stage or another in this match had a 53 round count thus the extra mags. Not sure what division the shooter was in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) I said this was a "unique" situation in my post above in light of the really good safety record USPSA (and all of the shooting sports) has. Look at the Indiana Sectional last year. 338 competitors, 17 stages, 371 rounds *minimum*. In one match alone, that's 5746 separate runs and at least 125,398 rounds fired, without a shooting injury. How about the Nats? How about any local monthly match? I wonder if someone can tell us how many separate runs there were in all of the matches in 2013 or 2014, across the country? We have a very good record, and again this incident is rare. We should work to make it extinct. Edited March 23, 2015 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveac1 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 who would make a fake video like this with their name on their back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 This scared the hell out of me. I think most shooters (maybe just me) have had a, "holy crap" moment when they realize that they, or someone else, just did something that could have caused injury or death when shooting. Never forget this. Real or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Not fake. The guy downrange was severely hearing impaired (from what I gather and have read). Lack of attention from the RO. Definitely a reminder that safety should be of utmost concern (as it usually is at every match I attend). Solid walls are great from a stage designer's POV but it adds an extra sense of responsibility of the RO to ensure the stage is clear and ready for the next competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 RO is the last back to the line and controls that line. barring inattention that should fix this type of problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmego Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 If you ever find yourself downrange in this situation (hopefully no one ever does) don't "hide" behind a paper target that's about to get shot.... Very grateful that no one was injured and hopefully this will be a valuable learning experience for all who watch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Isn't this "super-tactical" youtube channel somehow tied to BE forum member waktasz? If so.... Every place I have seen this video post, waktasz has not posted any comments about it. Makes me a little perplexed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Meh. I don't see the need to try to cover it up. there are only about 10913847901237490182379487123904781239847 worse examples of safety on youtube already. Learn from it and move on. If it helps remind a few people to check more carefully behind vision barriers, then that's a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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