Club Level Rule Strictness

[rowdyb]

yes, i know that. and i still have never seen a local club enforce that rule. EVER.

[RMark]

I am a old time IPSC shoot 22 years back. I got out due to the arms race. I started with a stock Colt Goldcup, then to a custom 45, then to a 38 Super. I got out when I needed a high cap gun to stay in the running. This was before the added divisions of today. Alot shooters got out of IPSC at this time, it hurt IPSC/USPSA in the day. IDPA was born from this fallout, people wanted to get back to the roots of Defensive Pistol shooting.

Now to my point, the life of any shooting sport, is NEW SHOOTERS, without them, it dies. If you have new shooters showing up with what they have, do you run them away from IDPA, because there , belt, holster, etc. are not legal. they can shoot in NFC. Let them shot, but know they will have to upgrade their equipment. I know rules are rules, safety is always first. Give the new shooter some slack. If the is new shooter gets pounded in their first match, they may not come back. That is the begining of the end.

If USPSA had stayed with just Open, it would be dead. But, by adding divisions like Production , Singlestack and Limited 10. New and old time shooters like myself (with guns left without a place to shoot) have a place to go.

Lots of my old UPSA friends are shooting IDPA ESP now. They started with the USPSA equipment and made the cross over.

Give the new shooter some slack, they are the lifeblood to the sport.

Mark

[BillR1]

Here's the problem, in my opinion. You enforce the rules at club level matches and ensure all the competitors follow them.

Or you decide to bend the rules a bit on one issue - let's say it is holsters. Next month it becomes not using concealment. Then it becomes non-regulation stages of fire. Then it becomes firearm modifications.

You get the picture.

I'm not saying it isn't okay to bend the rules or make them up as you go in the name of fun, as long as all the shooters are safe.

But if you are going to do that, then don't call the sport IDPA. Or USPSA. Or IPSC.

Call it "Combat Shooting". Or "Fun Shooting"

There's an old cowboy saying that applies here: "You can put your boots in the oven, but it don't make 'em biscuits"..

Agreed!!

[Wesquire]

I am a old time IPSC shoot 22 years back. I got out due to the arms race. I started with a stock Colt Goldcup, then to a custom 45, then to a 38 Super. I got out when I needed a high cap gun to stay in the running. This was before the added divisions of today. Alot shooters got out of IPSC at this time, it hurt IPSC/USPSA in the day. IDPA was born from this fallout, people wanted to get back to the roots of Defensive Pistol shooting.

Now to my point, the life of any shooting sport, is NEW SHOOTERS, without them, it dies. If you have new shooters showing up with what they have, do you run them away from IDPA, because there , belt, holster, etc. are not legal. they can shoot in NFC. Let them shot, but know they will have to upgrade their equipment. I know rules are rules, safety is always first. Give the new shooter some slack. If the is new shooter gets pounded in their first match, they may not come back. That is the begining of the end.

If USPSA had stayed with just Open, it would be dead. But, by adding divisions like Production , Singlestack and Limited 10. New and old time shooters like myself (with guns left without a place to shoot) have a place to go.

Lots of my old UPSA friends are shooting IDPA ESP now. They started with the USPSA equipment and made the cross over.

Give the new shooter some slack, they are the lifeblood to the sport.

Mark

But NFC doesn't allow holsters/belts that aren't legal. I emailed the IDPA clubs in my area and none would allow them even in NFC. I think this is quite stupid. If you are going to have a NFC division, what's the harm in allowing USPSA rigs? As long as they are safe, who cares?

[motosapiens]

i have never ever seen a club enforce that rule about having to join by your second match.

The regional or state director or whatever here has been trying to get clubs to enforce that rule. I stopped shooting IDPA because of that (I was typically shooting a couple matches a year in the winter).

fwiw, I think cutting a brand-new shooter some equipment slack (and educating him for the future) is not really going to be the slippery slope that leads to cats sleeping with dogs and not using cover. I don't think very many people seriously care if a brand new-shooter follows every ticky-tack rule on his way to finishing dfl. OTOH, if 2 matches later, he's top 10 overall and still hasn't gotten his equipment straightened out to be legal, I would see that differently.

[jsg]

Our matches are run very nearly "letter of the law" but we try to help new guys so they don't feel like they are overwhelmed by nit-picky rules. The reasoning behind the letter of the law stuff is so the shooters know what to expect when they go to major matches. We have considered it unfair to the shooter for him to get used to bent rules here and then go to a major and have a terrible experience because they are not prepared. With that said, we have had 1 chono stage in 3 years and we do not do a formal equipment check at the beginning of every match.

We also run stages with detailed stage procedures and descriptions so there is less room for confusion.

[rowdyb]

I see this, "we do it so when they go to major matches they don't get burned" reasoning listed often. So then I have a question or two.

-Who would go to a major match and not read the rule book on their own ahead of time?

-What percentage of IDPA membership attends a major match? I know I see a lot of the same faces when I go to them, so it aint always new people....

[ihocky2]

For tier 1 matches, everyone I have been to basically runs by "If you don't know about it, it's legal". Not to say that the MD's and SO's play ostrich with their head in the sand, but certain items you just don't know what is going on. I think this is more what the OP was asking about. Tier 1 does not have chrono or equipment check, so yes, unless it is grossly obvious, let them use under PF ammo. There are no scales at Tier 1 matches, so let them use an over weight gun. How do you know it is over weight without a scale, unless they bubble gummed a chunk of lead to the dust cover. Holsters and ammo carriers are not checked, if the SO notices illegal equipment or positioning it is up to them to address it. But if no one notices it, how do you penalize it?

It's not that anyone is blatantly ignoring rules, but the procedures that are used at higher tier matches just are not applied at Tier 1 matches. The rules need to be followed as best as possible. ALL safety rules MUST be followed. If a target is placed at 11 yards with a head shot required, should that stage be thrown out? No, who is actually measuring that tightly at a Tier 1? Just count yourself lucky people showed up early to help set up. Enforce the rules that are being broken, but don't go looking for people breaking the rules.

In a hockey game a player slashes another player in the head behind the play and the referee does not see it. Does that make it legal? No, certainly not. Is a penalty called? No, because no one saw what happened. You can only deal with issue and problems that you are aware of.

[jsg]

I see this, "we do it so when they go to major matches they don't get burned" reasoning listed often. So then I have a question or two.

-Who would go to a major match and not read the rule book on their own ahead of time?

-What percentage of IDPA membership attends a major match? I know I see a lot of the same faces when I go to them, so it aint always new people....

I understand your questions and find them valid. However I do not see how they indicate local matches should be operated with minimal concern for the rules (not related to safety). I do think you have to find some acceptable level of flexibility for the new guys since IDPA can be very knit-picky in many ways.

-If you go to a major match, you had best read (and understood) the rules before you get there. However if you have not shot much beyond the club level, and at your club they are really loose on cover calls, you are likely in for a rude awakening since you have likely created bad habits.

- I imagine you are right in implying a small number of locals go to major matches. In our case, we have anywhere from 30 shooter in the winter to 75 in the summer. Out of those, I can think of 15 off the top of my head that go to at least one major match each year. Probably 10 that go to 2 or more.

[FTDMFR]

I see this, "we do it so when they go to major matches they don't get burned" reasoning listed often. So then I have a question or two.

-Who would go to a major match and not read the rule book on their own ahead of time?

-What percentage of IDPA membership attends a major match? I know I see a lot of the same faces when I go to them, so it aint always new people....

Agreed, but I think the main thing that would trip someone up at a major match is cover calls, if they're not used to using it properly. There's a huge difference between knowing about cover and actually using it properly.

My local club is pretty lax about calling cover, and IMHO that's the one thing in this sport we shouldn't be cutting any slack on, even at the club level.

Edited April 2, 2015 by FTDMFR

[rowdyb]

Like I've heard at a Texas club, "We don't call cover tight, we call it correct."

BTW, if you read all my replies, I am a person for following the rules. Just don't be an A hole about it.

[Sandbagger123]

even at major matches cover is very subjective. Watching this vid the girls foot appears to be out there and cover not called.

[motosapiens]

even at major matches cover is very subjective. Watching this vid the girls foot appears to be out there and cover not called.

Video can be very misleading unless you have all the angles (like football replay). Even more so with the wide-angle lenses that most people take shooting videos with. I would hesitate to make any judgements based on video.

Nonetheless, cover is very subjective, and it's probably the worst rule in IDPA because of the subjectivity.

[Sandbagger123]

even at major matches cover is very subjective. Watching this vid the girls foot appears to be out there and cover not called.

Video can be very misleading unless you have all the angles (like football replay). Even more so with the wide-angle lenses that most people take shooting videos with. I would hesitate to make any judgements based on video.

Nonetheless, cover is very subjective, and it's probably the worst rule in IDPA because of the subjectivity.

she is actually doing it the way i have seen it in other parts of the country i have shot at. idaho and Cali come to mind.

[45 Raven]

I completely agree with your opinion of cover being the worst rule in IDPA. It is a good idea. But it is virtually impossible to get a consistent call across several stages run by several RO's. Not because the RO's are incompetent or unfair, but because the call is subjective and depending on how fast the shooter is moving and the nature of the course of fire, it is often difficult for the person responsible for cover calls to be in the same position for every shooter. I don't have a suggestion on how to improve or correct it other than just replace "cover" with shooting boxes that force the shooter to remain in some semblance of cover while shooting. At least that would remove the subjectivity from the rule.

[rowdyb]

I would like to see someone run a string from the center of each target to the edge of cover and beyond and then mark that line. NO guessing at all then. Yep you might have a fan array of lines on the ground but you'd have a definitive answer, not a guess. Tape, chalk, spraypaint, string, I don't care.

[davsco]

I completely agree with your opinion of cover being the worst rule in IDPA. I don't have a suggestion on how to improve or correct it other than just replace "cover" with shooting boxes that force the shooter to remain in some semblance of cover while shooting.

a big +1

[motosapiens]

I would like to see someone run a string from the center of each target to the edge of cover and beyond and then mark that line. NO guessing at all then. Yep you might have a fan array of lines on the ground but you'd have a definitive answer, not a guess. Tape, chalk, spraypaint, string, I don't care.

Or just abandon the whole idea. Thinking that residential walls and doors provide 'cover' will get you killed to death in the streets. (meow).

Just teach that crap in a tactical class, and make competition about shooting carry-able guns from concealment in the sorts of positions you would have to use behind cover (using fault lines).

[Jim Watson]

There is an outlaw match in this area that takes that tack and provides fault lines to make cover calls more nearly objective.

[Brooke]

I kind of agree with everybody. My club enforces the one-match-before-joining rule. Why not? We support IDPA why should someone else shoot it without offering the rather trivial support of joining?

If an experienced USPSA shooter (just an example) shows up for a match with no concealment and completely unacceptable USPSA gear why should he be allowed to shoot. He knows better and is just taunting. If a new competitive shooter shows up, then he should be recruited. Someone should be assigned to gently explain as the match proceeds what corrections are needed to fully comply with the rules. You can't expect everybody to know them.

In my opinion, a new shooter should attend a match or two as a spectator and ask some person in charge for some direction as to how to get started. That's just my approach. Some people just dive in. Many of them can become very active members and each one should be dealt with as such.

I believe in enforcing the rules strictly in every case with some leeway for new people so they continue to come!

[Thomas H]

I believe in enforcing the rules strictly in every case with some leeway for new people so they continue to come!

So, not enforcing the rules strictly in every case?

[hangin]

I believe in enforcing the rules strictly in every case with some leeway for new people so they continue to come!

So, not enforcing the rules strictly in every case?

Yeah that's what I take from this comment.

[hangin]

Cover (which I think you will be hard pressed to find in the vast majority of homes) is almost never called the same. I shot a Tier 3 match recently and watched 2 RO's shoot a stage the same way. I watched where they stopped and talked about it with the RO who did not call them for cover violations and then recorded as a friend of mine stopped at the same place and was given a PE. Luckily one of the RO's who shot from the same position argued on behalf of my friend. No PE's were given. I stopped further than both RO's and my friend but because I ran and went the opposite direction of the the majority of shooters the RO couldn't keep up and not call cover correctly. This is a time when clearly marked fault lines would come in handy.

[kirbinster]

Rules are written to be broken Remember one of the jobs of the SO and MD is to be an ambassador for the sport. If you are a super hardass jerk about rules you are going to alienate new shooters, and without new shooters the sport will die. That said, I have no margin when it comes to safety issues - and that is the way it has to be. On the flip side if a new shooter shows up with mag pouches that have bullets facing out I am going to let him shoot. I'll explain the problem to him and tell him to bring the right stuff next time, but I am not going to stop him from shooting. I recall as a fairly new shooter I came to a match with a drop offset holster by mistake. The SO explained that it was not legal, but let me shoot the match. The only time I think you really need to be strict with some of this "petty" stuff at a club match is for a classifier match. Remember, most people at club level matches are there to have fun.

[Jim Watson]

I divide strict enforcement up by category.

Safety:

Required, you would think. But I once had to tell a SO that either the guy who had just swept me on the reload was going home or I was. The SO was going to "give him a good talking to" but not DQ him until I insisted.

Noncompliant Equipment:

New shooter: Shoot what you brought, be instructed as to what is regulation. The only question is, how long does he get to do his shopping before he goes to NFC?

Broke shooter: We had one guy with a 6" .38 Special, all he had or could afford. We let him shoot club level.

Toy box: We had another guy who wanted to play with his subcaliber, a FN 5.7. Too bad it wouldn't knock down the steel, which was not good for his score. He eventually got the picture and brought out a regular gun; G22. I think we are going to see a lot of this stuff with formal NFC.

Procedural:

This is the big one. We see a lot of SOs reluctant to give the new guy a PE for cover, Priority/Sequence, speed reloads, etc. If they are learning the rules three seconds at a time, they need to GET the three seconds to drive the lesson home. "I'm not giving you a PE, but you did that one wrong." is not the right approach.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Jim Watson